Author Topic: ??? for breeders  (Read 13983 times)

ann

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??? for breeders
« on: September 14, 2005, 09:10:01 am »

 with all the people asking about breeding here and at my job , could anyone tell me some facts like at what age should a male dog be a stud and a female have a litter and at what age should health tests be done and what tests .i might be wrong but i thought some of the tests could not be done until 3 years of age...about a health cert or a gar. what should a new buyer be looking for........... .............t hanks ann

Offline RedyreRottweilers

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 09:54:22 am »

This varies from breed to breed.

Final health testing is usually OFA hip and/or elbow exams, which may not be done before 24 months of age.

The best way to find out what is normally done for your breed is to visit the website of the National Club.

You can find these at http://www.akc.org for each AKC recognized breed.

The short answer is anyone who does not INSTANTLY know the answers to these questions should not be breeding dogs.

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Offline Anky

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2005, 10:01:01 am »
I personally think that a dog should prove itself before being bred so that would mean that even though a male dog CAN be bred when sexully mature (Differs for all breeds, 6 months to a year) it's better to do when they're 18 months to two years, after they've been tested.  A female I don't think should be any younger than two in the average breed, giant breeds a little older as they take longer to mature. 

So much depends on the breed, which is why research is so important.  Danes need test that a Dachshund doesn't and vice versa.  Some dogs are prone to heart problems while others are notorious for eye issues.  I don't know off the top of my head any tests that you have to wait till 3 years for, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.  Also, a health CERTIFICATE is just a vet saying your dog doesn' have any contagious diseases.  Under NO circumstances should this be considered a mark of a good breeder.  Something that I see over and over with people who want to breed, or already have, is that a health certificate doesn't mean that the dog's been health TESTED. 

When looking at Guarantees, look into what they're guaranteeing.  Guaranteeing hips for a year is useless seeing as how hips can't be tested till two.  ALL breeds, and ALL lines have health issues, make sure your breeder tells you about what issues their lines are prone to.  If they say their line has no health problems run away as fast as you can.  All that means is 1) either the breeder didn't do research on the lines or 2) they're lying to sell puppies. 

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Offline taijinrr

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2005, 06:47:31 am »
I TOTALLY AGREE
even a 2 year h/d gaurenntee is not good enough
OFA CAN BE DONE UNTIL 2 YEARS, BUT PRE LIMBS CAN BE DONE BY 18 MONTHS

in my experience  prelimbs  do not change  as they go up to 2 years
if you are thinking of breeding  pre limb first,,, then again at 2 to get OFA
both hips and elbows
stop bad breeding and the health issues will fall
do reserch on not only the parents but the complete blood line
all our dogs are sound and exrayed if we breed them at the appropriate age
most of ours are champions, shows that they fit the standard of the type of breed it should be!
it's not an easy task to show and win! and it is costly too
but to me it is worth the excitment of winning and seeing other dogs  in compitition
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Offline sarnewfie

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2005, 07:29:34 am »
Sorry but prelims in giant breeds can and do change, for the better or worse depending on diet, excersise and growth rates.
It is not wise to generalize and bunch all breeds together.
our breed is fickle.
in that, prelims need to be done before the growth spurts.
many old timers found that prelim during growth spurt gives bad readings, than at two, if muscled up properly and diet is proper they are good
There are to many variables that go into joint disease and same goes for us humans.
there is no proof to me that cross reference gives any better odds of clearances in a litter of six than the way it was done years ago.
Also due to the politics i dont buy the show them in conformation before you breed anymore.
i am sorry but when our breed is placed due to TYpe and type only and if you dont scissorcut the h*ll out of your dog becouse everyone else is , than you dont win.
i can judge a newf in his own environment movement, structure etc.. better than many judges who dont even own a newf.
many judges specialize in other breeds.
what makes them an expert in my breed?
it all boils down to money, and a specialized system that works on money.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 08:00:17 am by sarnewfie »
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Offline Moni

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2005, 08:11:25 am »
I personally think its a great idea to wait until the dog is at least 3yrs old to start breeding it.  Besides more reliable results from health testing, there are other diseases and health problems that don't show up until a bit older.  Epilepsy is becoming more and more common in many breeds and it frequently doens't turn up until 2-4yrs of age.

Waiting until at least 3yrs also lets the dogs fill out more and lets you be able to see what their entire adult personality is like.  At 2yrs they are still finishing off their puppyhood/adolescence.  It also gives a chance to work on their other titles such as working, obedience, tracking, herding, etc...   Sadly too many breeds are losing their natural instinct and/or intelligence because they are being bred JUST for conformation.  :'(

Of course, I'm not a breeder.  Just someone concered about the future of dog breeds.  :)
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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 08:28:42 am »
our breed has been done like this for years and years  what you see is what it is
we dont sizzor our dogs  they are short coated, and not a giant breed, but large breed.

in all the 20 years of breeding champion dogs, health sound
pre limbs have never changed
from 18 months to 2 yrs
i agree on the giant breeds,
but
 i DO KNOW MY BREED and how to produce sound healthy dogs. not all are show pups, but nothing is perfect, ridge too short, ears not correct,,, but as for the main health 
all are sound,,,,,and that is the most important thing.
i rather see a pup, showable or not, go to a pet home, where it is loved for the dog, not how many champions it has in the line or for breeding
all our PET's are to be S/N. that's in the contract
like i sais
breed to make better dogs,,,,,,,,,,,not more
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Offline sarnewfie

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2005, 09:14:12 am »
Many breeds are better bred younger than three
due to the nature of youth, pushing out pups is very hard on a female, the older she gets the harder it is.
and yes breed to better, but...
even dogs with obvious faults can throw beautiful pups, if matched carefully.
all dogs have faults, it is the extent, andserious nature of them, and the matching of male female should be done to offset the faults of each one.
there is no perfect formula, and it is easy to say how it should be done if you dont breed, wait till you do, than you will learn the ropes and realize that there is way more to breeding than "just" health clearances.
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Offline Anky

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2005, 10:29:40 am »
Many breeds are better bred younger than three
due to the nature of youth, pushing out pups is very hard on a female, the older she gets the harder it is.
and yes breed to better, but...
even dogs with obvious faults can throw beautiful pups, if matched carefully.
all dogs have faults, it is the extent, andserious nature of them, and the matching of male female should be done to offset the faults of each one.
there is no perfect formula, and it is easy to say how it should be done if you dont breed, wait till you do, than you will learn the ropes and realize that there is way more to breeding than "just" health clearances.

I have to respectfully disagree with some of this, and agree with the rest.  :)  I agree that there is more to breeding than just health clearances.  A dog has to be properly put together to perform the tasks it was bred to do.  I also agree that no amount of reading or research can compare to first hand experience.  However, saying that I must say that I think everyone SHOULD research as much as possible before going into breeding.  Saying "Nothing is a better teacher than experience" and diving in knowing nothing (I'm in NO way saying that you're suggesting that) is incredibly irresponsible. 

Personally two is the youngest I'd ever breed a dog.  A giant breed dog I'd prefer to wait till they're older.  Around three.  I understand that an older dog has a harder time giving birth, but so does a baby!  And giant breeds aren't mature until 3 years old.  Yes you get fewer litters out of a dog during their lifetime, but giant breed dogs have giant litters.  It's the natural order of things. 

I agree that all dogs have faults, but when breeding you should look for the BEST that you can on both sides.  Even the best have faults though, and yes then you look for partners that offset those MINOR faults.  If I had a choice between an awesome bitch with a few little faults or a bitch with no front whatsoever, I'd pick the awesome bitch and find a stud to offset her faults.  I wouldn't pick the frontless one and cross my fingers that the stud with an amazing front would prevail in the offspring. 

I plan to eventually breed Danes, but not for a while.  I'm taking every opportunity that I can to learn about breeding and bloodlines.  I talk to respected breeders at shows, on the phone and online, I go to seminars, I read everything I can, and I know that even 10-20 years from now, when I plan to start my breeding program, I won't know everything.  Just doing the best I can with what I have now! :)

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2005, 11:14:12 am »
i agree we must keep the insticnt in the dog to do what is was bred for
since there are no afican lions here in the usa
hunting other game has to do.
besides comformation, lure coursing and house guarding is also part of this breed.
 i, wont hunt my dogs because i do not hunt, but lure coursing them keeps them into the hunt game, catch the fake rabbit,,
we alays breed to inprove on our dogs
what fault there might be, is bred to a dog without that flaw.
so far , after all these years, we have produced some beautiful, healthy dogs, that go to approved homes only
ALL parents are OFA thyroid , heart etc checked
brred to make better dogs,,,,,,,,not more
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Offline sarnewfie

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2005, 02:38:56 pm »
Actually was not saying that ang, there is more to breeding than saying what you would do or could do
you dont find out until you actually get into it WITH A MENTOR AND WITH MUCH RESEARCH
if you would wait till age three you go right ahead. LOL
and a female with no front also could be bred to a proven male with an awesome front.
it amazes me how many people have high opinions, yet till they get into the nitty gritty, only then do they realize
that
A not every pup is going to be incredible in one litter
B that no matter how perfect the parents are, you will have odds that defy your best laid out plans
C that no one should ever get into breeding until they have learned structure, movement and studied their breed and many others for experience.
toi many jump into breeding yesterday or get their first newf and want to breed, i got my first in 86 and didnt start breeding till 2000 only after having done the obedience rings, Search and Rescue for several years, and of course the conformation ring wich is full of politics and all the wrong things promoted including harmful fads.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And giant breeds aren't mature until 3 years old.  Yes you get fewer litters out of a dog during their lifetime, but giant breed dogs have giant litters.  It's the natural order of things
$$$$$$$$$$$$
the statement above from you,  i only do two litters out of a girl, maybe three but that is it.
if i can do a litter at age 22 -24 months, i find that it is so much easier on her, penny popped out nine pups in five hours each in sack all lived. she did this at age two, all tests were done, though, doesnt mean all pups will clear tests, all it means is mom was done and others in the line
but ya know what?
even all cleared down both sides can throw disastrous results.

at age four, she had a litter of 8, one was born dead with placenta and cord wrapped around it, the others were born about an hour apart, though the pup before the dead one threw off two pups and it was more difficult for her, plus way behinder everyione else was a female.
had she been older, this would have been much harder on her.
why did i breed her
oh for so many many reasons, plus, by the time the first litter is two i saw what she threw and i can match her with other lines that might improve more still.
not sure what you mean by giant litters, but we average with chilled semen, 7-9 pups
many are only birthing two or one or three pups.
hmmmmm makes one wonder about the breeding practices that are going on.
Good for you for researching.
but....
be careful out there.
One more thing i might add, there is no gaurantee that pups will be healthy, none, they cant do it to you when your baby is put in your arms, we as breeders cant gaurantee the health on each and every pup, as much as we wish we could.
nothing is perfect.
and sometimes breeding for one trait, and heavy line breeding can cause more problems opening pandoras box than anything.
so with that i will be quiet now.
LOL


« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 02:57:15 pm by sarnewfie »
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Offline kildeskennel

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2005, 04:19:20 pm »
This subject is one of great debate between many people and owners and breeders of different breeds of dog.  I agree with part of each post but not with all of each post.  We just started breeding and researched the breed for many years before purchasing, We also have a mentor who has been breeding hte Kuvasz for 35+ years.  I could give an opinion as to what we believe is correct for our Kuvasz, but you have a different breed of dog than mine.  I ask alot of questions of many diferent breeders not just Kuv breeders, but ultimately talk each peice of info over with our mentor and take what she has found works and eliminated what does not.  My advice is to talk to breeders of your particular breed and if you want to breed make sure you have all the preliminary tests done and cleared with OFFA prior, research the lines, and have adequate housing and time to raise a litter.  Beauty had 16 pups the 14 and 15th were stillborn, and one was very small and died teh following morning.  We raised 13 pups until they found homes and the last 5 were with us until 3 months of age.  It is a hobby, but a BIG BIG JOB and evne BIGGER responsibility .  You should be available to the new owners for the life of their dog for questions, concerns, and support.  We have close contact with most of our owners, a few already have Kuvasz and contact accasionally with updates.  That is the most I am going to get into with this conversation.  As I said in the beginning of my post, this subject is one of VERY diverse opinion.
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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2005, 04:23:51 pm »
I must clarify, that the giant breeds typically DO NOT throw Giant litters.  That is rare and more frequently you see an average litter of 7-9 as posted abve by Sarne.  There are also the girls who only have 1-3 pups in a litter. 
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Offline Anky

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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2005, 08:31:12 pm »
Actually was not saying that ang, there is more to breeding than saying what you would do or could do
you dont find out until you actually get into it WITH A MENTOR AND WITH MUCH RESEARCH
if you would wait till age three you go right ahead. LOL
and a female with no front also could be bred to a proven male with an awesome front.
it amazes me how many people have high opinions, yet till they get into the nitty gritty, only then do they realize
that
A not every pup is going to be incredible in one litter
B that no matter how perfect the parents are, you will have odds that defy your best laid out plans
C that no one should ever get into breeding until they have learned structure, movement and studied their breed and many others for experience.
toi many jump into breeding yesterday or get their first newf and want to breed, i got my first in 86 and didnt start breeding till 2000 only after having done the obedience rings, Search and Rescue for several years, and of course the conformation ring wich is full of politics and all the wrong things promoted including harmful fads.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And giant breeds aren't mature until 3 years old.  Yes you get fewer litters out of a dog during their lifetime, but giant breed dogs have giant litters.  It's the natural order of things
$$$$$$$$$$$$
the statement above from you,  i only do two litters out of a girl, maybe three but that is it.
if i can do a litter at age 22 -24 months, i find that it is so much easier on her, penny popped out nine pups in five hours each in sack all lived. she did this at age two, all tests were done, though, doesnt mean all pups will clear tests, all it means is mom was done and others in the line
but ya know what?
even all cleared down both sides can throw disastrous results.

at age four, she had a litter of 8, one was born dead with placenta and cord wrapped around it, the others were born about an hour apart, though the pup before the dead one threw off two pups and it was more difficult for her, plus way behinder everyione else was a female.
had she been older, this would have been much harder on her.
why did i breed her
oh for so many many reasons, plus, by the time the first litter is two i saw what she threw and i can match her with other lines that might improve more still.
not sure what you mean by giant litters, but we average with chilled semen, 7-9 pups
many are only birthing two or one or three pups.
hmmmmm makes one wonder about the breeding practices that are going on.
Good for you for researching.
but....
be careful out there.
One more thing i might add, there is no gaurantee that pups will be healthy, none, they cant do it to you when your baby is put in your arms, we as breeders cant gaurantee the health on each and every pup, as much as we wish we could.
nothing is perfect.
and sometimes breeding for one trait, and heavy line breeding can cause more problems opening pandoras box than anything.
so with that i will be quiet now.
LOL





Argh if you READ what I said I went out of my way to say that you were in NO way suggesting jump into it.  I was saying personally I would wait till age three, I was in no way saying that my way was right, just my way!  I KNOW a female with no front can be bred to a male with an awesome front and vice versa!  I was just saying that you should try to find the best all dog you can, not just deal with a mediocre dog and figure you can fix it with a dog who excels in that department.  It CAN be done, yes, but I PERSONALLY don't think it's wise.  I also know that not every pup in a litter is going to be perfect or show quality.  Which is why I see no reason to use dogs that aren't the best you can get because even with amazing incredible near perfection dogs you can get a complete litter of pet puppies with no show prospects.  I understand the risks involved with breeding which is why I have no intentions of jumping in right now, because even though I know more than the average dog owner, and unfortuately more than the average dog breeder, I admit that I am in no way prepared to take responsibility for bringing those lives into the world. 

In regards to the breeding of dogs.  I still stand that a Giant dog matures at three.  NOT saying that they should only be bred then.  Humans females COMPLETELY mature around 18-21 and males around 22-25 (Debateable).  Does that mean that only people that age and older can safely have babies?  No.  I NEVER called anyone's breeding practices into question.  I just stated that I RESPECTFULLY in my PERSONAL beliefs disagreed and that is all.  I totally agree that lines need to be researched and that and expert (Which most "Breeders" today are NOT) breeders can do things because they know what they're doing.

In regards to litter sizes, Giant breed dogs do typically have larger litters than a small breed dog.  If I recall the world record for largest litter was recently held by a Neo.  Small dogs usually have 1-3 pups.  I know that Giant breed dogs have smaller litters, often one pup, or sometimes, tragically none.  But a large dog is capable of a larger litter than a small dog.  I don't see how one's breeding practices can change the amount of pups in the litter.  I've spoken to people who use AI, whos dogs have tied once and who's dogs have tied many many times over the course of a week, and the pups in the litter show no relation to the ways they were conceived.

I also know that health testing does NOT guarantee healthy puppies.  I forget who said it, but testing is a recent development.  You can't know what your lines hold 75 years back if the testing was never done.  HOWEVER I do think that testing is important because if a dog fails you KNOW not to use that dog.  I guess I don't understand what people have against testing. 

I don't recall anything about breeding for one trait or line breeding (Which personally I'm scared to death of (  Doubling up on the bad as well as the good just doesn't appeal to me), so I am doubting that was aimed at me.

Also, I SAID on this post that if anyone guarantees your pup to be totally healthy (I'm saying the breeder is saying your puppy will never have problems, not that the breeder will give you a refund or replace the dog if something indeed goes wrong) to run for the hills!

I am doing all I can to research.  I don't know what you meant by be careful.  Like I said this is YEARS down the road.  At least 10.  Yes I have dealt with crackpot breeders, I have talked to a woman who's had several dogs in the top 10, I've spoken with Euro breeders and American breeders, Judges, I'm on multiple message boards, for everything I hear I do a background check on it.  This isn't a hobby for me either and I don't even have a dog to show for it yet! 

I'm sorry your girl had problems.  I really am.  I'm not saying I'm the know all, I'm not saying that anyone is doing anything wrong.  I mistakenly thought that this was a place where people could respectfully debate practices and perhaps learn from one another. 

Ang
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Re: ??? for breeders
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2005, 08:40:53 pm »
Ang, you weren't mistaken about that at all!...You know that BPO is an extraordinary place!...With this many people with different experiences & backgrounds there are bound to be differences in opinion...& always remember that communication is the vast majority reading body language which we don't have the benefit from on the net...I think we all really try to understand each other here though!...I personally think that you are doing a great job in gaining knowlege & know how to become a class A breeder!...BIG HUGZ from Iowa! :)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 09:05:26 pm by GYPSY JAZMINE »