Author Topic: Have you heard of a "white factor"?  (Read 12329 times)

Offline Maggie's Mom

  • Veteran Dog Chomper
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • Maggie, Simon and Oscar
    • View Profile
Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« on: December 09, 2005, 01:23:18 pm »
My breeder was expecting a litter at the end of November from a Harle to Harle breeding of Great Danes.  The parents are beautiful, and I thought that the pups would be jsut gorgeous.  Well, they only ended up having 3 live puppies, two of which are almost totally white, and one merle.  She thinks the white ones will at least be deaf, and possibly blind too.  I was wondering why this happended?  She said one of the parents must be "white factored", so I wanted to know what that is?  Are there tests that you can run for that?  Are you not supposed to breed two Harles?  I'm just wondering if anyone knows anything about this?
Stacy, Wes, and Maggie (Great Dane)

Offline Nina

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1911
  • In Loving memory 12/30/05 8:30pm We miss you
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2005, 01:32:35 pm »
I don't know much of how coloring works in danes ect. But from remembering my high school biology and genes ect, the "white factor" would be a recessive gene and one of the danes would have to carry it. It is odd that there would be 2 born that way, depending on how may puppies she had. I don't know about breeding a Harle to a Harle, it could be that both dogs carry the "white factor" gene and that is why 2 were born almost all white. Anyway that is all I know, I am sure more people will have more info for you.

Nina
Nina and Tim
Calgary, AB, Canada
Harley(Lab mix)
Dilbert(Pyr mix)At the bridge
Jolene (cat)

Offline Maggie's Mom

  • Veteran Dog Chomper
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • Maggie, Simon and Oscar
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2005, 01:45:35 pm »
High School biology was almost 10 years ago for me :o, but that rings a bell.  I remember all that genetic stuff, and I guess it would be recessive, but I wonder if all Harles carry that since they have so much white on them.  I'm just curious, I never thought about having to worry about that if we ever breed her.  We still have a few years before we'd breed, but just thought I'd ask.  Of course we'd do all the other research before breeding, but I didn't know we'd have to do a genetic makeup as well. 
Stacy, Wes, and Maggie (Great Dane)

Offline newflvr

  • Tail Wagging Champ
  • *****
  • Posts: 3390
  • Cowboy is four years old and Chester is almost two
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2005, 02:02:17 pm »
I know zero about Dane breeding as well, but with Newfs, occasionally breeders will get a "brown Landseer" and they are absolutely adorable.....b ut the females can't be bred because they either can't or won't feed their babies.  One of the breeders I spoke to said that she had heard that it's a genetic issue...so it wouldn't surprise me if the 'white factor' is similar.  That's just one of the many reasons I could never breed....there are just so many factors to take in to account.

BUT I'd still LOVE a brown Landseer!  SOOO cute!! ;D

GR8DAME

  • Guest
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2005, 07:27:23 pm »
Dane genetics are incrediblely complicated. Harle x Harle is more risky than Harle X Black or mantle, but frequently done to increase the likelihood of Harle puppies. It also increases the likelihood of white deaf, vision comprimised and stillborn litters. Merles carry the recessive gene as well and a Merle X Merle litter can result in an even higher incidents of tradgic litters. Being a Merle, even if he was purebred, Strider would have been nuetered at the earliest opportunity, as I do not feel the risk justified. When the harle x harle git are themselves bred it further dilutes the gene pool and compounds the poor litter results. Good dane breeders spend years studying genetics and plotting their breeding stratigies to avoid these problems, and strengthen the breed. In my opinion it is not an endeavor for an amatuer.
Stella

Offline Kermit

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1784
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2005, 07:40:37 pm »
That's crazy irresponsible. .. I know probably nothing in the world about breeding EXCEPT never breed harl to harl!!!! Poor puppies!!! :'(

Offline Anky

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2005, 07:46:25 pm »
Moni'll be all over this.  :)  Yes you should NEVER breed Harl to Harl.  (It's one of those Nevers that only really experienced breeders can do.  Like breeding with a Merle or a white.)  It's the main reason that Mantles were accepted into the GDCA standard, so that there'd be less chances of whites.  (Before that, Mantles were a mismark, like a merle.)

Dane genetics are one of the most complicated in dogdom.  Resessives and dominants, and hidden dominants, and carriers, and masking genes and, clean fronts, merling genes and brindling genes, mantling genes, dilute genes, spotting genes VS Harl genes and those are just for color.  If you're really interested there's several good genetics links here.

http://www.chromadane.com/chlinx.htm#linkgdcolor

Like I said Moni knows WAYYYYY more about this then I ever will.


Edited to add:  There's MORE of a chance of beautifully marked puppies out of a Harl to Mantle than a Harl to Harl.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 07:47:43 pm by Anky »
BPO's Official Mistress of Mirth
                       
Charter Member of the Official Suspicious Chicken Fan Club

"And you will know us by the trail of skank."

Offline Anky

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2005, 07:54:26 pm »
Just thought I'd throw this up.  It's the meat of the article, and why Harls shouldn't be bred unless you think that bringing deaf deaf puppies into the world is something you want to do.

HARLEQUIN to HARLEQUIN: You can expect, in a litter of 7, to see 2 (likely mismarked) black or Mantle pups, 1-2 merle pups, 2-3 harlequin pups & one deaf white pup (two are statitically conceived, but one of two whites conceived generally dies prior to birth). Naturally people have 7 males in some litters, so some people will have 7 harls..or even 7 deaf whites, but on average, about 1/4 of the four basic colors is what is expected. Of course harls that carry blue or fawn or brindle can produce these "porcelain" dogs, sometimes called bluekin, fawnikin & brindlikin respectively. To read about why fawnikins occur, click here. Flashy harls (with lots of white) could also produce piebalds: white dogs with "mantle heads & harlequin looking bodies" as they have been described. Harl-, merle- or boston-heads; dogs with white bodies & "caps" of color (i.e. color-headed dogs) also can result from the use of piebalds & flashy harls & mantles. These color-headed dogs, also called piebalds, are essentially mismarked Mantles. To read more on piebalds, click here. Any time two dogs with the merle gene (incl. harls) are bred to each other, white merle (i.e. defective, dominant white) offspring are to be expected. The dominant whites that do survive to birth are normally defective & commonly deaf. Ethical breeders have traditionally euthanized most all whites at birth for these reasons. To read more about white (MM) danes, click here.

HARLEQUIN to MANTLE: This is the preferred breeding, all things considered, as it does not produce the Dominant (deaf ) White dane. Expect the litter to be about 1/2 mantle, 1/4 merle & 1/4 harl. So in a litter of 8, expect 2-3 harls, 1-2 merles & 4 mantles. If these black pigmented dogs carry for other pigments, you may get fawns with blazes, or blue instead of a black basecoat. (If that is confusing, read about why fawnikins are here to stay.) Piebald & color-headed dogs can occur, especially when flashy dogs are used.

MANTE TO MANTLE: Produces only Mantle: that is, it cannot produce harl, merle or white danes. Now piebald danes that are mistaken for whites and for harlequins can be born to Mantle parents. This is more likely to happen when breeding flashy Mantles with big collars & broken blankets than with dogs who have more pigment. Mismarked blacks can also be born to this breeding as can piebalds, so this breeding doesn't promise all show marks, it just guarantees having nothing but black and white dogs. It is possible (if unlikely!) that very flashy Mantles bred to each other could produce a puppy so white s/he could be deaf. Possible--not probable--& AFAIK it's never happened in Danes. BUT it does happen in Boxers & Dalmatians.

MANTLE TO (harl-bred)BLACK. Would likely produce mismarked blacks. Mantles & (solid) Blacks also are possible.

BLACK to BLACK: Would likely produce mismarked blacks when harl-bred blacks are used. Mantles & Blacks possible.

BLACK TO HARLEQUIN: Produces as does Mantle to Harlequin, except, since a Black lacks the white collar of the Mantle, expect more mismarks under the AKC standard to occur, both in Harlequin & especially in potential Mantle offspring. Blacks will likely not be solid Black, but mismarked black, sometimes even called "harlequin black" it is so common to black to harl breedings. These "harlequin blacks" are disqualifying under the American standard.


Taken from http://www.chromadane.com/harl2merle.htm
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 07:55:20 pm by Anky »
BPO's Official Mistress of Mirth
                       
Charter Member of the Official Suspicious Chicken Fan Club

"And you will know us by the trail of skank."

Offline Anky

  • Supreme Drooler
  • ****
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2005, 10:26:05 pm »
High School biology was almost 10 years ago for me :o, but that rings a bell.  I remember all that genetic stuff, and I guess it would be recessive, but I wonder if all Harles carry that since they have so much white on them.  I'm just curious, I never thought about having to worry about that if we ever breed her.  We still have a few years before we'd breed, but just thought I'd ask.  Of course we'd do all the other research before breeding, but I didn't know we'd have to do a genetic makeup as well. 

Just saw this.  I am going to say this in the NICEST most BPO correct way I can.  Please do not breed Maggie.  Don't get me wrong, I think she's gorgeous, and I'm pretty sure  I mentioned I wanted to steal her.  HOWEVER, Harls are the most complicated, heartbreaking Dane color to breed.  I can send you several articles and links saying the same thing.  Breeding Danes, especially Harls takes years of pedigree and genetics research.  I happen to know a very dilligent breeder who's been doing this for 10 years and has only come away with 2 living show marked Harl pups.  If you want to breed Danes, really want to I would start out with one of the easier colors. 

But for now just enjoy your baby :)
BPO's Official Mistress of Mirth
                       
Charter Member of the Official Suspicious Chicken Fan Club

"And you will know us by the trail of skank."

Offline MustLove Dogs

  • Paw-meister
  • **
  • Posts: 596
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2005, 02:14:33 pm »
I know zero about Dane breeding as well, but with Newfs, occasionally breeders will get a "brown Landseer" and they are absolutely adorable.....b ut the females can't be bred because they either can't or won't feed their babies.  One of the breeders I spoke to said that she had heard that it's a genetic issue...so it wouldn't surprise me if the 'white factor' is similar.  That's just one of the many reasons I could never breed....there are just so many factors to take in to account.

BUT I'd still LOVE a brown Landseer!  SOOO cute!! ;D


I saw my first brown landseer in October... I didn't know their were such a thing as a brown landseer before then!
"The more boys I meet the more I like dogs"

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion"




I'm blonde... whats your exc

Offline Maggie's Mom

  • Veteran Dog Chomper
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • Maggie, Simon and Oscar
    • View Profile
Re: Have you heard of a "white factor"?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2005, 10:35:03 pm »
Holy crap guys, I had no idea about all that stuff!!! :o  I mean I knew that you had to do research and so on, which we would definitley do before we ever started to think about breeding, but my lord that all sounds so scary!  There are so many different factors that go into Dane breeding, sounds like it might not be for us.  Thank you for the articles, I haven't read them yet, but I will- my computer is retarded right now and I can't get on very often.  Maggie's parents were Mantle and Harle, so at least that litter was ok.  I wonder why she'd do an all Harle breeding- makes me wonder what kind of research she's done! 
Stacy, Wes, and Maggie (Great Dane)