Author Topic: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!  (Read 10191 times)

Offline jabear

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Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« on: September 21, 2005, 08:51:54 pm »
Tonight Nicki came over with Angus & Cody so that we could work with our soon-to-be therapy dogs. The plan was to work Bear & Cody while Angus was tied up so that learns a little self-control. Well, long story short all was going well until Bear's friend Jett came out. (He loves Bear and barks until he gets to come out and play) He was very happy to play with Bear & Bear was happy to play with him but both Cody & Angus were extremely upset by this.

Angus started in first by growling, barking and lunging forward to bite Jett in the throat. Then Cody growled and barked while moving forward as he attacked Jett. Nicki quickly grabbed ahold of Cody and made him stay with her and I got Angus. I tied him to my waist so that he couldn't get away but he still kept trying to attack Jett. Keep in mind that while he was doing this his tail was wagging.  ??? Bear even tried to keep the peace by placing himself between Jett and Angus to which Angus still tried to eat Jett.

I don't know what to do and how to stop this most recent of terrible behavior. I am scared that without super quick reflexes both Cody & Angus will someday cause some major damage. Nicki really loves them, as do I, and we need them to learn from their mistakes which they have yet to do. So....please help! We are in desperate need for some advice.

P.S.
We think that together Angus & Cody are much worse so we will work with them seperately from now on....but still....there is a problem of aggression. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jaime
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GYPSY JAZMINE

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2005, 09:05:55 pm »
The tail was wagging...Are you sure he was trying to attack or was he trying to play fight?...When my guys are serious the hackles are up & there is no mistaking their intent...I ahve actually never even seen Pippin this serious even when he is trying to rip Sam's face off...Sam, I have seen twice ready to kill...Both times he felt an animal was threatening me...Once a coyote which was some way off & once I don't know what it was but I heard it by the fence line & by Sam's reaction I didn't wait around to find out what it was!...I still wonder what would happen if you just let it go for a bit...Perhaps they are just trying to work out pecking order?

Offline jabear

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2005, 09:18:08 pm »
Yes Gypsy- he was attacking. The lunging for the jugular as he snarled and growled made it pretty obvious. I just don't know what to do. Being nice doesn't work, being calm doesn't work, yelling doesn't work, making him sit doesn't work, saying "no" as I yank the pinch collar doesn't work. I just don't know what to do and after the dog park incidents this past weekend working it out on their terms is not an option. :o
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Jaime
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Offline newflvr

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2005, 09:31:02 pm »
What a heartbreaking, scary situation!  It sounds like it's time to call in the professionals!  There is a guy in downtown LA who takes on rescue dogs and retrains them.  I think he's known as the "dog whisperer".  I've heard that he works wonders.....ha d a friend with a St. who was a bully and this guy worked with him for several weeks and now the dog is great!  I could research his info. and see if it could work for Angus.  Do you think Cody is just following Angus' lead?  Wasn't Cody okay before Angus matured?

Offline Jen and Rick

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2005, 09:32:42 pm »
Dogs can look/sound/act very very serious and yet by some miracle with all the flashing of fangs, not a drop of blood is spilled. 

That said, there are some dogs which just are not meant to be dog park sorts of guys.  They lead great lives, but just can't be trusted to socialize around other dogs. I rescued an Akita from the local pound who was not reliable around other dogs, period.  It didn't make him a bad dog...but it was just something I had to realize.  The girls could go out, but not the Akita.

If it were me, I'd contact a professional to see if the problem could be worked through.  Have the dogs been through a formal obedience class? 

nickerbokker

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2005, 09:48:19 pm »
basically, they were trying to kill him.  jett came about 3 feet from angus, and angus went for blood.  this WAS NOT playful...this was "if my damn leash wasn't on, you would be dead!".  there is a difference in playing and attacking...an d this was full on attacking.

cody actually broke his pinch going after jett, and i had to grab him to prevent him from eating him. 

what cody used to do when he didn't like a dog was growl, both would go their own ways, and all would be well.....he NOW does not stop trying to EAT another dog until a human gets in the middle.  before it was a warning, now it is a full on attack.

what angus used to do was bark onleash, and when offleash, he would be fine....funnin g, loving playing.....it was GREAT! (im talking last week here).  now, he is GROWLING, SNARLING, AND ATTACKING. 

jaime had TWO leashes on angus to keep him in order....that is not playing. 

basically, i am worn down.  as jaime said, i as well as WE, have tried EVERYTHING.  squirt bottle, treats, nice, mean, calm, crazy anger......not hing works...my dogs are focused on one thing and one thing only....kill it.  kill it not matter what it is, and kill it no matter how far away it is.  break the leash, and get that animal.  i am tired.  i love them with absolutely ALL my heart, and i would do anything in my means for these animals, and yet it's not working.  they just have lost it in the head.  it kills me every day and night...and it is to the point that i live in an apartment, and their only way to get out is by walking and i flat out refuse anymore.  not because i don't want to, but because i don't want them to attack another animal because i don't want either animal to be hurt, and i don't want mine to be put to sleep. 

i just feel so defeated. 

smohr

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2005, 10:24:39 pm »
Hmmmm.  Sounds like this has been a bad week for our BPs with their attitudes.  I agree that some dogs aren't social.  Have you tried a muzzle?  I'd use that everytime you go out with him or are around other dogs.

Do you know of anyone (a trainer) who does this so it won't cost an arm and leg?  I hear people toss around using a trainer, but some of us can't just mortgage our homes to do that. 

I'll be praying someone comes up w/some solutions for the 'misbehavin' guys.

Offline GrumpyBunny

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 02:15:07 am »
Believe me, I know how frustrating this all is...  I know it seems like things just keep getting worse and worse, but remember, they are in a environment that is still relatively new to them, and the stress of the move may still be taking a toll on their emotions.

As always - I am no expert, but I think for right now they definitely should not be given the chance to get into an altercation with another dog.  That doesn't mean you can't take them out, just make sure that they are on-leash and far enough away from other dogs that they can't get to them if they start to go off.  You may need to do some work to reshape the presence of other dogs as positive for them.  Don't be fooled by the wagging tail!  You need to become a student of doggie body language and figure out HOW they are wagging.  We are all familiar with the "hi, how are ya, happy to see ya" wag - that is usually a full body wag, the tail is low down and goes wild, often in big happy circles accompanied by butt wiggling.  But dogs will often wag their tails in an agressive fashion - look out for the tail that is held high over the back when it wags, especially if it is accompanied by other agressive body language...

I would start off by looking for a training class in your area.  Try to look for something that is billed as a "Fiesty Fido" class or a "growly dog" class, which would specifically cater to dogs that are very reactive to other dogs.  They usually offer a smaller class size and more individual attention to the dogs.  The focus is on teaching your dog to focus on you rather than the other dog...

If you can't find one in your area, maybe try calling the obedience schools that are there and ask if they do any work with reactive dogs.  Some schools will let you work a more aggressive dog on the "outskirts" of a regular class, provided you can control the dog and make sure it doesn't harm others.  But, if you can find a "Feisty Fido" class, that might be a better first start, since it is more than just straight obedience....

There is also a group on Yahoo, specifically regarding dogs that show aggressive behavior.  It is moderated by a few good dog trainers, and can often offer some suggestions, or at least a reference for a good trainer.  They also have some really good articles and source materials that they ask you to read...  I can give more info on that if needed.

Finally, there are just some dogs that simply decide at some point in their lives that they have enough friends and are not taking any applications for new ones, even if they have loved every other dog they have ever met in their life up until that point.  In some ways it is very natural for a dog at some point in his life to decide he doesn't like every other dog it meets.  Jean Donaldson's book "The Culture Clash" has some good information on this... 

Cody and Angus are good dogs, and, yes, it will be frustrating if they can't interact freely with other dogs in the future, but you will still love them and work around their needs.  I haven't killed Ranger yet!   ;D
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Offline newflvr

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 02:18:33 am »
I am SOOO sorry!  Oddly enough, I got the lastest issue of "BARK" magazine (actually two issues of the same magazine?!!) last night  and there was a whole training article on just this subject.  If you can wait until Jaime gets home, I'll bring my extra issue to her at the beach on Saturday.  If you want to go check it out, go to Borders maybe, and read the article and then when Jaime get home, you'll have your own copy.  Basically, it talks about training, with lots of treats, your dog to look at you whenever there is another dog around.  It's a long article and it takes you through the process step by step. 

I know how awful this is.  Believe or not, my last two Newfies, Otis and Lucille got kicked out of a boarding facility for not playing nicely.  They would get a smaller dog between them and just run him, and if the smaller dog slowed down Lucille would snarl and bite!  After Otis died, she just got worse!  It was horrible trying to walk her where we might meet another dog!  A low point was when I wrapped both arms around a pole, with the lead wrapped around the pole and both hands and she still try to attack another dog!  It was awful!!!!

Offline Anky

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2005, 02:37:29 am »
I think the dog whisperer thing is a good idea.  His website is
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

Besides you might get on his National Geographic show!
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/
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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 02:39:02 am »
Nick-
 Not a whole lot of advice to offer here....but tail wagging is simply a sign of arousal. A dog can and will wag its tail while it attacks. 

Grumpy is right....you need to learn to speak fluent dog. As if you don' t know that...duh...a nyway. Just wanted to throw the tail wagging thing out there....

I hope you can get it worked out in a way that is comfortable and safe for everyone.

Offline greek4

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 02:45:00 am »
This is my take on the situation. 
-Angus's aggressive behavior has imprinted on Cody or eggs Cody on
-Keep Cody away from Angus in situations that could turn ugly
-I think training them seperately is a great idea, or train each one with Bear
-Maia dislikes all dogs until she knows them, when we approach other dogs, I put her in a heel and distract her by taking to her, patting her back, anything.  If she doesn't react to the other dog, I praise lavishly, if she reacts she gets a NO NO and a jerk on her gentle leader the whole time we are still in motion away from the other dog.
-Maia has gotten a ton better about passing other dogs.  If I let up with working with Maia for even 2 days she reverts.
-Maia wears a muzzle to the vet because there she lashes out with fear and uncertainty.  Having the muzzle on keeps any damage from occuring and I think it makes her feel more secure.
-If Maia is growling at a dog on the other side of the fence for more than a minute or two, Rocco will stop being a nice dog and start growling too or he will nail Maia for being mean.

I hope this helps.  Maybe you could get into his head and figure out exactly how he is feeling when dog approach him.
Thanks,

Emily and 1 husband, 1 boy, 1 on the way, and 4 crazy dogs

Offline newflvr

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 02:46:08 am »
I think the dog whisperer thing is a good idea.  His website is
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

Besides you might get on his National Geographic show!
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

Thanks Anky!!!

Offline Scootergirl

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 02:51:47 am »
Hmmmm.  Sounds like this has been a bad week for our BPs with their attitudes. 

You're absolutely right. Just this morning Rocko and foster aussie Trina were outside while some guys from work were tacking the tarps down on my roof. Trina ran off so I sent Rocko after her to "herd" her back. At the same time, a guy came jogging down the street and Rocko started running around his legs and barking at the guy's feet like he was trying to herd him back, too. The guy was none too amused.

As for Cody and Wango, I have to agree with everyone else - seek professional help (for the dogs first, then for your nerves!). Maybe Redyre has some advice.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between dog and man." -- Mark Twain

Offline Moni

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Re: Please Help! Nicki & I are out of ideas!!
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2005, 03:11:42 am »
I have to run out the door, but here is a great site.  Turid's Calming Signals.. its even better if you can actually get the video of it.. Really amazing stuff.  :)

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/questions.php

Try and look over as much as possible and perhaps implement them.  Also, if you're worried about another beings safety(human or animal) a basket muzzle with Bar's open/Bar's closed works wonderfully.  I'll try and write more later.  Sorry I have to run!

Moni
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