Author Topic: Messed up story  (Read 7433 times)

Offline luvmenewfs

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2005, 04:02:36 pm »
 ;D
Always willing to discuss that which is near and dear to my heart! 
I think it's wonderful we're all so passionate enough to take action yet listen at the same time.  Very important.

Long and boring sorry folks.  Hopefully it'll be a little interesting.

Kenai by the way, is absolutely stunning.  I have a friend who works in Dry Bay and is a fishing/hunting place.  Her boyfriend has been doing this in Dry Bay for over 20 some odd years. 

Yes, things are going sour we agree on this.  Especially some idiot using puppies and kittens for bate.  I do draw the line on that.  Bate is just fine.  Good Lord made me sick when I read that.  Also, situation in Africa is different because they are poaching.  Different situations.  So don't compare that to this.  Thousands, even hundreds of seals are not being slaughtered through subsistence.  We're talking on total a year for food maybe 20 in a large area.  Far less than what you are thinking.  In this area maybe 5 seals are taken.  It's all shared for the most part so no one is over hunting.  No whaling here. 

Okay, think through this perspective for a moment.  The villagers up north have been living there ever so long.  It is their home.  Realistically, is it reasonable to say, "Hey, move so your life is easier because I don't like how you live?"  When, they know far more about what they are doing than we do.  If they see a shortage of a food staple, they find something else.  NEVER NEVER NEVER do the Natives up North overharvest.  It's like a taboo to do so.  In fact charter fishing and hunting as guides are seen as an exploitation by many up here.

Also, Inuit is mainly Canadian, so, they are probably able to harvest marine mammals differently than the Alaskan Natives: Yupik, Inupiat, Aleut, Alutiqq and others.  IN fact, in Canada, they may have a commercial outlet, I'm not sure.

Howevever, up North in Alaska, US, an act called The Marine Mammal Protection Act is in place.  No marine mammals or their parts can be sold by anyone, imported or exported, and a native can sell but first it must be altered, meaning in art form (such as mucluc, slippers, parka, ivory carving etc, and the meat can only be taken by natives for subsistence use.  Now, this does not mean any Native can run out and shoot a seal, whale, walrus etc.  NO NO NO.  You still have to get a permit.  To export, ha, you are looking at an incredibly expensive permit, with a major major tax.  Its not easy.  The villages up north have been doing this for generations always have and always will, so they have proven their need, but most do not abuse it for commercialism.  Couldn't if they wanted to.  Seals are NOT hunted for the pelt anymore.  That was way back when in a different area.  Here, the meat is used more than the pelt.

To take any marine mammal arts across the border to sell elsewhere even through to go to seattle, a special permit that is very spendy must be obtained.  So not many do it.
 
Northern peoples know how to live up there and even genetically their bodies have adapted to the environment.  They are settled in.  Now, some villages are a tad larger these days but not much.  Meaning schools.  Schools meaning a store and post office.  However, a gallon of milk flown in, when the planes can fly in winter (mind you it is pitch black up there for 6 or more months of the year and very very cold), which is not very often due to the harness of the environment, can cost up to 10 bucks a gallon.  YIKES.  Could we afford to live like this?  NO.  Forget about meats, fruits, or vegetables, a certain time of year, it ain't getting through.  Out of the question.  However, they live by seasons and know what to pick and when what to store and how, and how to prepare for each winter.  They also know what they can find during the winter if they are running low.  A whale, one mind you, rarely two, sometimes not even one, can feed an entire village or other families in other areas and all is used.  The fats in the whale give the body energy needed to stay healthy during the winter.  It is no easy feat getting these whales.  They pretty much do this traditionally and only the men actually go out whale hunting.  It is fortunate to actually bring in one.

Asking them to move somewhere else where life is "easier" and so they can't hunt or fish or subsist anymore, well...
Who is going to provide the jobs they will need to pay for rent, cloth their children, buy their fuel, buy their food?  Who will provide college and training so people are not stuck with dishwashing or delivery jobs. Its not as easy as some believe.  You can't just pick up and move to a new place.  People up North are not rich like some folks believe.  That is a false assumption.  Monies for most of the natives up here are tied into corporations.  Only small amounts are given to those who were born prior to a certain date.  A few are considered rich, yes, but even then, they are not rich as individuals.  How much do you think they see from the corporations?  It's very political, so we aren't going to go there!!   ;D

But, asking them to move, it's not reasonable.   Are they complaining because they subsist and live in an almost unliveable environment?   And to be honest, Traditional Northern natives are well adapted, at home,  do not exploit food,  live in the harshest environment imaginable, accept their way of life, why then can we not accept them for who they are?  Traditional way of life is not harming anyone.
I will tell you though, that our society and our way of life has done 50 times more damage to that environment and group of peoples and the way of life than you could imagine. 

For freezers!  Yes, their entire land is a freezer for heavens sake! :D
THis is why they do seasonal subsistence and why one whale can feed an entire village for 6 months or longer.  It freezes as they are cutting it up!  So they know well how to store their food supply.  Don't think of it as they go out every month or week to go whale hunting.  The way they hunt whale, OH MY LORD.  NO way would anyone do this on a regular basis.  They do it in...Kayaks :o.  That's right, Kayaks.  They are very very skilled and know exactly what they are doing.   And whales don't just float around up there all the time.  Their migration is also seasonal.  You have one chance in a year sometimes longer and that is it.

This is what seperates subsistence from commercial.  So those who subsist to live are just trying to live.  Should they be deprived from their nutrition?  I mean why do people go on hunting guides?  To hunt.  Do they need to?
These people have more of a need than those of us living near stores.  To be honest, my husband who is native, we also do a little bit of subsistence.  I come from a farm, we too did the same only a lot of our food was grown.  It was our way of life, and yes, we were poor so the food we grew was imperative to our well being during winter.  The off season.  We didn't have money to go to the stores.  So it's all good.  Just different. 

Economics up here is killer.  Even here where I live, we pay double what you pay due to shipping.  We're more expensive than Kenai.  We're on an island here.  So economics also has a large role in subsistence.  If we can smoke, jar, or freeze fish for winter, that will save us a great deal of money to be spent on electric or diesil, or other bills such as things you cannot subsist for like boots, shoes, and the such.  Move?  Really, and where are we going to work, where are we going to live?

See how it fits all together?

Luv

Don't think for a minute though that I excuse any of the appalling actions of the trawlers, draggers, commerical whalers, slaughters, and flat out abuse.  Uncalled for abuse.  That too we fight against.  But we do seperate it out, because those who are just living, should not pay for those who are abusing.


Offline pndlake

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2005, 04:54:55 pm »
very much food for thought from all of you. thanks
Peggy

Offline Tulsas' Dad

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2005, 01:46:17 am »
For those that rely on subsistence from the oceans, I am in awe. Our natives harvested what they needed, when they needed it. Our Earth was a bountiful plate to feed from, giving up her rich harvest to those who had the wisdom to utilize it. Nurture it. And expected it to sustain them forever.
This may not be 'Politically Corrrect"
But when a 'culture' or ethnic group chooses to exploit certain animal parts, for profit, or whatever, they should be stopped, boycotted, and ostracized. Our world is shrinking, and our animals are the first to feel the pressure.
I love to fish with a fly rod. I love to catch large fish, and release them.
I would like to think that I'm a caring, thinking adult, doing what he can to help sustain our world, to make a better place for our animals.
If our animals lose their world, where are we gonna go?
Tulsas' Dad
The scientific name for an animal that doesn't either run from or fight its enemies, is Lunch.--Michael Friedman

Offline luvmenewfs

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2005, 05:54:31 am »
Just as much as I understand and accept the way some live and subsist, or those who hunt, or so one, I also understand and accept those who do not agree.

With some issues we, my husband and I, are torn.  We do not agree.  But we have learned to accept this!  If he goes to the opposite, I still love him dearly and respect he must support what he believes, and vice versa.

This is how a balance is kept!  What is nice is when it can be talked about without to much passion.

Newf Lover, I want you to know I could never rightly say you are wrong.  You have the right to believe what you believe.  In this case you are right.

Sometimes a different perspective is good to look at whether accepted or not.  I hope I have not offended any of you at all.  None of us are wrong and that is actually the wonderful complexities of issues.

Now, back to the event at hand, what can we do to assist stopping the atrocity of puppy bating from happening?  Is there an organization, a group we can contact?

Luv

Offline Newf Lover

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2005, 10:00:14 am »
Just as much as I understand and accept the way some live and subsist, or those who hunt, or so one, I also understand and accept those who do not agree.

Newf Lover, I want you to know I could never rightly say you are wrong.  You have the right to believe what you believe.  In this case you are right.

Sometimes a different perspective is good to look at whether accepted or not.  I hope I have not offended any of you at all.  None of us are wrong and that is actually the wonderful complexities of issues.


WOW!  That was quite a mouthful.  I hope you understand that I am completely understanding of Native people hunting whale and seal in order to just survive.  But even that can be abused.  My uncles in Kenai told me that a lot of Natives up there abuse the "no limit" allowances they are given by the state and use nets to catch lots of Kings in order to make a profit.  This doesn't always happen, but it does go on.   An unfortunate human characteristic is "give me an inch and I'll take a mile".  As nice as it is to think that modern day Natives are as noble as their ancestors, most are but many are not.  Look at the situation with Indian gambling here in the states.  Initially it was believed that it would improve whole tribal communities and it does.  Yet with the billions they pull in only a select few are REALLY benefitting from the casinos while they only give a small portion to their communities.

A person cannot insist on living somewhere and then claim hardship.  If you love to live in a land where you lose the sun for 6 months and there are very few modern conveniences, so be it.  But if life is so hard, why live there if it isn't necessary?  I know it is not easy to relocate, especially if you and your family have lived somewhere your whole lives.  But it is not impossible.  I have lived all over the U.S.A. and have had not had much of a problem finding work or a place to live.  Anything is possible if you are strong minded.  If you want to work, there is work to be found.  Why do you think so many people illegally cross our borders every day?  This is the land of opportunity!  There is work to be found here.  You asked who would give the jobs and education to people who relocate?  It's called finding them yourself.  There is nothing wrong with washing dishes or cleaning yards.  It is hard honest work and I have done it myself.  One of the problems in modern day society is everybody has their hands out and it is killing us!  I don't want to get off topic but to each his or her own.  I love where I live and I hope you do too.  Life is too short to be miserable.  I'm not trying to cast judgement on something I don't know everything about.  I prefer to live in a place where I can grow my own vegetables year round and get my meat from a private rancher so I don't have to rely on supermarkets or worry about eating, where the weather doesn't trap me in my house in utter darkness for months at a time, where I can work on improving my finances and my career so I don't have to struggle my whole life.  But that's me and what I want and I don't expect anyone else to want the same thing out of life.  Like Luv said, I hope I didn't offend anybody, I just was giving one point of view.  I think we beat this topic to death and actually agree with one another.  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:05:33 am by Newf Lover »
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Offline Newf Lover

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2005, 12:11:42 am »
This story has surfaced up once again and now there is photographic evidence.  Dogs and kittens used as shark bait?  This needs to stop!  This is a graphic shot, but sometimes people need to see things to believe it actually happens.  I really hope the French government and the fishing industry as a whole stomp this kind of animal cruelty out!  I am so angry right now!  I don't want to post the link to the actual article, because kids might be reading this, but if any adults are interested in reading it, it's on today's Drudge report in the left column.  If you scroll down, it's about the 6th story.   More animal lovers need to know about this horrible, cruel practice.

http://drudgereport.com/



« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 12:19:32 am by Newf Lover »
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Offline brandon

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2005, 12:18:56 am »
I have to wonder how true this second one is.. Since it is in "the sun" and that rag seems to be less than accurate at times.

but his was in todays

" MAN has been arrested by cops probing the use of live dogs as shark bait, it was revealed last night.
It comes a day after The Sun published horrific photos of a pup with a fishing hook through its snout.
"
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.â€

Offline Newf Lover

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2005, 12:23:01 am »
I agree about The Sun, but did you see the picture?  Poor dog!  I refuse to believe that's a fake.  If the guy they caught was one of the sickos doing this, they should put a hook in his nose and one in is leg muscle and drag him behind a boat for the sharks to chew on.  Fair is fair, I have no tolerance for sadistic behaviour towards animals.  Once, I just about beat the crap out of a man I saw kicking his dog.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 12:43:47 am by Newf Lover »
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Offline brandon

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2005, 12:35:07 am »
I saw it.. that dog looks very scared, and it's just a young lab pup.  Not a good way to start of your Monday morning  :-\
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.â€

Offline Newf Lover

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Re: Messed up story
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2005, 12:38:54 am »
Yeah, it's a pretty upsetting picture and that's why I didn't post the direct link to it, just not an appropriate thing to post in a forum like this.  I think people should see it though, but through their own searching.  I'm going to give Drake a big hug when I go home for lunch today. :'(   This world can be such a cruel place.....
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 12:42:22 am by Newf Lover »
My Newfoundland Lives My Life As Passionately As I Live His.