Author Topic: How about compulsory spay/neuter?  (Read 15226 times)

Offline VdogLover

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2005, 05:42:31 pm »
Rabbits, dogs, and cats are not included. >>>>

Thats what I thought I had been told also....though t maybe they slipped it in somewhere when no one was looking.


Big brother controlling who gets to breed may be a very wrong road to take.  Look at the current record of mills the USDA has given their ok for~ I feel dogs on a whole would suffer greatly!

Offline Anky

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 05:46:30 pm »

Ang, it is my understanding that the technology is there to implement this program, BUT that it will be difficult and expensive.  It is my opinion that it will be implemented but poorly enforced initially.  In some places it will probably be enforced better than others.  Many people will not comply, and this will be used as an excuse to fine or arrest people that the government decides it doesn't want around - perhaps because they are too independent.  However, with time, people will just accept the program as a matter of course and comply.  (Note that this is my opinion, except about the technology.  That comes from the posts of several other people on a different forum, so it is not certain and is only "my understanding."  :))
Sofia

I think they have the technology on a small scale.  ie:  a farm at a time, but no where neat the national range you're talking about :)  Also, just from someone who's studied speech and how to get people to your side and stuff.  you're going to want to steer away from comments like this one. 

"In some places it will probably be enforced better than others.  Many people will not comply, and this will be used as an excuse to fine or arrest people that the government decides it doesn't want around - perhaps because they are too independent.  "

I'm NOT saying you are, it just makes you sound like a conspiracy theory whacko.  It turns the average citizen off to your cause.  Just a suggestion.
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cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 07:48:02 pm »
Truth be told, I am against the NAIS and anything resembling it.  Yes, if it's going to be instituted, then lets do something positive with it.  I think that we have way too much govt interference (sp?) as it is.  I just threw the question out there because I wanted other people's opinion and their arguments.  This is such a wonderful board with educated, thoughtful people and I really value everyone's contribution.. .even if I disagree sometimes.  This is a very real concern and a very real threat to our continued privacy.  Once the door is open, it can't be closed again no matter what.  If this gets instituted, it's going to be "easier" for them to enforce in rural areas than in cities because of the population density.  In fact, the cities will most likely have to "self-enforce".  That and the agency people are usually well known in the areas they work in.  I know that I know our USDA vet...even though her region is the entire state.  Already there are regions that you have to register to buy feed...and the feed store has to send that info into the govt.  Unfortunately people that are unaffected by this regulation (NAIS) such as people w/o livestock, aren't going to be the ones to get involved.  Well, if it's not stopped here then at what point do we draw the line?  When it affects every critter...?  City or rural? 

Ok, that being said...I'd still like to see a spay/neuter program instituted.  Perhaps not mandatory but certainly encouraged in some fashion.  It's an age old problem that I wonder can be solved. 

Offline VdogLover

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 08:14:30 pm »
Ok, that being said...I'd still like to see a spay/neuter program instituted.  Perhaps not mandatory but certainly encouraged in some fashion.  It's an age old problem that I wonder can be solved. 
How about it being encouraged first by getting vets to lower the cost of the surgery? This would at least give people of lower incomes and seniors the real option of S/N their pets.
Lets face it whats the real cost of a neuter?? A 5 minute surgery should not cost over 200.00, as it does at many vets around me. If big brother wants to spend our money on a program for pets let them pick up say 50% of the cost if the vets want to scream they will be losing to much otherwise.

cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 11:15:27 pm »
A long time ago there was a clinic in Montgomery that only did spay/neuters...and they did them at a discount.  The dr there made a load of money while doing the surgeries for about 2/3 of the cost.  I don't know why they closed but they did and I've never seen another one.  I've never figured out why they cost so much either.  And the story about monitoring equipment is crap...I've been there and know what they cost and the cost of operating them.  They can more than make up the cost in other surgery and services. 

GR8DAME

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2005, 01:08:13 am »
I took Merlin to a spay/nueter clinic. They superglued the incision shut. That might work for a 2 LB mojo, but not on a 140 LB Great Dane! His incision dehised and 400.00 later at the emergency vet he got stitches. It would have been easier on him, and my pocketbook to go to a regular vet to begin with. Conpulsory spay/nueter will have no better effect than BSL. The law abiding, caring owners will comply, and the people who don't give a darn will not, and we will still have thousands of unwanted animals PTS on a daily basis.
I don't pretend to know what the answer is, but I do know that further government interference isn't. Just my opinion.

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Offline mixedupdog

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2005, 07:36:50 pm »
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,64194,00.html

They already microchip people. On another board I belong to, I see an awful lot of people who would be willing to give up an awful lot of rights to things like privacy and probable cause because our government has them so afraid of terrorists that they think it's necessary for their own personal safety.  I happen to live my life in such a way that I am as equally aware that I could be hit by a bus as killed by a terrorist, and take about the same level of precaution against it. 
Don't you think the government could convince an awful lot of people to do it on their own- in the name of "Homeland Security"?

Offline VdogLover

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2005, 09:44:39 pm »
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,64194,00.html

They already microchip people. On another board I belong to, I see an awful lot of people who would be willing to give up an awful lot of rights to things like privacy and probable cause because our government has them so afraid of terrorists that they think it's necessary for their own personal safety.  I happen to live my life in such a way that I am as equally aware that I could be hit by a bus as killed by a terrorist, and take about the same level of precaution against it. 
Don't you think the government could convince an awful lot of people to do it on their own- in the name of "Homeland Security"?

Fear has always been used as a motivator to gain control with having few questions asked.

SA_horses

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2005, 10:49:01 pm »
Also, just from someone who's studied speech and how to get people to your side and stuff.  you're going to want to steer away from comments like this one. 

"In some places it will probably be enforced better than others.  Many people will not comply, and this will be used as an excuse to fine or arrest people that the government decides it doesn't want around - perhaps because they are too independent.  "

I'm NOT saying you are, it just makes you sound like a conspiracy theory whacko.  It turns the average citizen off to your cause.  Just a suggestion.

Thank you for the advice; I will keep that in mind.  Reading at it again, you are right...I expressed my thoughts poorly and they come across as wacko alright, yet another stupid thing that I have said.  May I rephrase that to say that I think it could be used in that way, not that it necessarily will?

GR8Dame, I think you made an excellent point.  It would make little difference unless there were massive funding (and higher taxes of course - I don't see that happening to pay for a spay/neuter program), because the people who do not care enough to prevent their dog from having pups would not comply.

I think cost does contribute to pet overpopulation in many cases and that more people would neuter their animals if they could afford it more easily.  However, lowering the cost of spaying and neutering is not necessarily in the long-term interests of vets.  (Fewer sterilized dogs = growth of the dog population = more demand for their services = more money)  While many vets do care more about the animals than about the money, I do not think that all vets are that way.  If they did, I think Science Diet would be promoted less, for example.

As far as giving up freedoms, VdogLover is absolutely right.  That is nothing new, although I do not like to see it on a large scale anymore than you do, mixedupdog.  People will often do foolish things when they are experiencing any powerful emotion, I think.

cricket36580

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2005, 11:45:39 am »
Boy did you hit on the head, mixedupdog.  Fear is a wonderful motivator! 

Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2005, 02:42:12 pm »
When it comes to mandatory spay/neutering I am not for it. Yes I do believe it would cut down on the dogs who go through the shelter and have to be put to sleep. BUT in the long run I think a lot of s.k hobby breeders who breed for the love of that breed, to better it and to strengthen the positives in that breed. I do thing all breeders should be licensed though, I am all for PAWS, I  hear so much how that would harm the hobby breeder or rescues, no it wont, first if you breed 7 or more litters a year, it is doubtful you are a hobby breeder, second even if you are, whats wrong with having a min. standard for how the dogs should be kept and cared for? Me for one, if I bred only 1 litter a year, I would not mind having to follow these rather limited standards, because I know I would have my own standards way higher than that. Rescues dont breed and dont sell so they are not included.

Soooo with that law and even lisence for breeders I think a lot of the mills and breeders with no other in mind than making money would be weeded out. The one thing I think would do wonders for the amount of dogs and cats going through shelters is to stop retail selling of dogs.

Second micro shipping, I see both good and bad there, the bad is what everyone is worried about, big brother can see us wherever we are and it is a threat agains the freedom. BUT when it comes to animals, I microship all my dogs, and had it been done on horses when I had them I would have loved to do that too, why.. because if they get out, get stolen you name it, it is a security.

And for people hmmmm not saying it should or shouldnt, but a thought..... say your child, your 3 year old child get lost, simply lost or grabbed by someone who have in mind to do god knows what. If that was my child would I want to have a micro chip so I could see where he/she was? ohhhh yes in that situation I would I am sure think it was worth every little bit of given up freedom, just to get her/him back.

Marit
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2005, 04:17:03 pm »
Quote
I think a lot of the mills and breeders with no other in mind than making money would be weeded out.

FIRST THING:

Keep in mind that one of the main factors that makes milling, pet shops, and all the rest of that crap PROFITABLE for these disgusting people is the AKC.  And laws that would require licensing and inspections, etc., based on stringent enough guidelines to put mills and unscrupulous breeders out of business are going to substantially affect the AKC's bottom line, because those mills aren't going to be sending in their inflated-to-the-customer-forward-the-actual-AKC fees anymore. 

And AKC is a big enough corporation with a strong enough brand identity to keep this kind  of law from ever passing.  (Note that I said brand identity, not brand policy!)

See, most people--even a large percentage of pet owners--don't realize that AKC is just a business, and that as a business, AKC is NOT concerned with the health or welfare of the breeds/dogs it purports to represent, but ONLY with it's company bottom line.  It's not a charity, and the fact that it's a non-profit only means that it can't SHOW a profit--which mean that they can spend a lot of money on advertising and offices.  (I know. I worked for a non-profit. You'd be utterly astounded at the end of year 'sprees' that were encouraged by senior management in some departments, just to make sure that they 'used up our budget' every year.  And look at some of the scandals the Red Cross, another notorious 'non-profit' keeps having!)

You and I know that AKC leaves it to the breed clubs (who only responsible owners or breeders belong to!) to be concerned with genetics and health issues.  But there are thousands of "AKC" dogs that are bred that the clubs know NOTHING about, because the millers and the profiteers deliberately stay away from the breed clubs!

Most people see "AKC" only as the people who put on the Animal Planet shows with those beautiful dogs.  Those 'best of group' dogs competing for best of show!  Of course they're beautiful and healthy--or at least the LOOK like they are.

I think it would be a FASCINATING study if someone who's really good at forensic accounting did a serious study of the AKC's finances over the last 20 years.  I'll would bet actual money that if a really, seriously honest audit were done, it would show that most of AKC's registration fees/money comes from 'mill pup' registrations, NOT from serious, responsible breeder pups. 

BACK TO THE POINT:

If there's ever going to be a workable 'compulsory' solution it's going to 1) have to come out of the veterinary association/establishment, 2) have to be cheaper for owners and more bottom line profitable for vets, and 3) have to be more convenient than the current standard solutions of spay/neuter surgery.

The veterinary establishment should be working on a serious,  NON SURGICAL spay/neuter program. 

There's a shot out there now for males--you can get it done at some Petsmarts--but there's nothing that I've read indicating that they're even working on anything on a large scale for our girls, which is very strange.  You'd think that before they started doing 'clip ligations' on human that the FDA would have required SOME kind of animal testing results that vets could have used to develop a similar procedure.   In fact, I'm surprised that there aren't studies of clip ligation IN dogs out there to read online!

I would think that it would be FAR preferable to do a quick laprascopic placement of clips on a puppy's tubes at 6-10 weeks old than to slit one wide open and remove a chunk of her anatomy at six months!

Clip ligations for humans can be done under LOCAL aneshetic--isn't that preferable to putting a dog under a general for a spay?? 

If clips could be placed inexpensively for female pups it might well become the standard for a good breeder to have it done before a pup goes home--yet another way to tell the responsible breeder from the profiteer!  And if it turns out that a 'pet' pup is an exceptional breed example whose genetics should be propogated, this way her genetics have been preserved--I KNOW that there were studies in invitro done in dogs, and that it works.  And I can think of a half dozen healthy, well-tempered, hip, eye and heart-sound dogs that would have added a LOT to their gene pools if they hadn't been judged "not show quality" and spayed/neutered as pups!

So why aren't vets working on clip ligations, as an alternative to the surgical spay/neuter? I have to wonder. ???

What I know is that one reason my research is tending me toward having a male when the time comes is that I'm just not at all thrilled by the prospect of having my baby drugged into unconsciousnes s, slit open and eviscerated! It's probably because I'm a woman; but it seems like there's got to be a less...invasiv e...solution.

Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline mastiffmommy

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2005, 04:37:26 pm »
I fully agree with you about AKC, AND it saddens me. When I first moved here I thought AKC would be very similar to SKK (Swedish Kennel Klub) where they have done a wonderful work of educating and where needed been for legislation in order to protect the animlas. There is still lots of work to be done in the scandinavian countries but one thing say, in sweden we do not have animla shelters. not because we dont care, but we just dont need them. About 90% of all dogs are pure bred and planned breedings. Then there is a small number of oops breedings and mixes, they are usually sold by the "breeder" who is eager to find a good home, not just "get rid of" Also it is not any retail selling of dogs or cats, which I think is one reason to why some countries have almost 0 in euth. of unwanted dogs.

It is very upsetting that AKC is not there for the dogs and their welfare and health, thats why it is utterly important for all of us who do care and want a change to speak up and get organized and get our voice heard, a voice that will actually speak for the good of the dogs, rather than having our eyes set on profit.

Marit
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2005, 05:01:46 pm »
Thanks.  :)

But really...wasn't the biggest fantasy movie EVER that Legally Blonde movie about the Pet Bill in Congress? 

No government is EVER going to do ANYTHING about animal welfare--heck, they aren't even paying attention to MAD COW DISEASE, which is 100% transmissable and 100% fatal! 

I feel confident that if we all sold our souls to Satan on the condition that he help us get the US government to pass laws regarding animal health and welfare, we would all get safely to heaven because not even LUCIFER could move Congress to do anything on that issue. 

Now, I'm off for the WHOLE WEEKEND!!  I don't even have to come in on MONDAY!

I love this job. 

Sheryl, Dogless and sad

Offline VdogLover

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Re: How about compulsory spay/neuter?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2005, 10:16:00 pm »
So why aren't vets working on clip ligations, as an alternative to the surgical spay/neuter? I have to wonder>>>>>>>>>>.

 Simply put...tubal ligation does not hold ANY health benefits for the dog what so ever. The female would still have heat cycles, still run a increased risk of cancers, still be able to develop pyo. Female dogs are normally spayed to not only stop unwanted pregnancy but to have them benefit from the decreased health risks.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 10:16:57 pm by VdogLover »