Author Topic: talked with the breeder...  (Read 10303 times)

Offline renate1

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2006, 04:40:43 pm »
Hi,
Took a look at that website.  I don't know what to tell you.  I have to check my books at home for sure, but after looking at the pictures of their "girls"  from what I can remember reading I would esp. be concerned if the mother was Houdine (in the picture where she is walking you can see how her one foot is bent all the way perpendicular to the ground....this is a fault.  Also Scarlet has a very narrow head (at least that's how it looks in the pictures.  All I can suggest at this point is to grab some Saint Bernard books (I have about 8....my fav being the one written by Stan Zeilinski (sorry if spelled wrong) "Saint Bernards from the Stoan Perspective"  I would also recommend the Saint Bernard Club website as this has some great info regarding the breed.  You can order an illustrated standard for the Saint Bernard Breed which is very helpful in knowing what your Saint should look like.  Again these are all just my opinions.  I ust found this site and jumped in head first.  Also check out sites from people with Champion dogs Stoans, Cache Retreat, Opdyke, New Sage etc.  This will give you an idea of what a quality Saint looks like...from puppies to adults.

Offline Anky

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2006, 04:45:19 pm »
And also, just because the daddy is a show dog doesn't mean he's a quality dog.  Any dog with full AKC registration, and no disqualifying faults can be shown.  It doesn't say how well he's done, normally there would be aCH in front of his name if he had points to his championship.

Also, something that makes me, personally, nervous, is the two litters one right after another.  Usually a hobby breeder has one to two litters a year.  They research the genetics and the background and make a good choice for the breeding.  They also know how time consuming it is to have a litter and they like  break in between.  :)  That's just another warning sign for me. 

I also agree that the pups look off but I'm not a saint person so my opinion means squat :P
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Offline chaos270

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2006, 05:23:56 pm »
I'd be a little leery too of this breeder.  The pictures she has on her website are worthless as far as assessing the conformation of the parents.  I'm not too sure I would trust that.  You may want to ask for better picture of the parents standing with views from both sides and maybe even pictures of the legs.  And the books would be a good investment and if you get the pictures you could post them on here for the Saint buffs to look over.  I don't know the standard and have only been around two that are still growing.  Good luck with the puppy search....it's worth the effort.
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Offline newflvr

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2006, 05:39:00 pm »
I hope you don't think that everybody is jumping down your neck and trying to break your heart over your choice of breeders....th e cautions are truly just to keep you from learning the hard way.

My first Newf, Otis, came from a byb who was just starting with his first litter.  My choice had all the qualifications I needed.  He had pups and he was relatively close....and I could pick up my new puppy within just a couple of weeks.  I was on Cloud 9!!!  I had NO idea about OFA, certifications, testing....he had puppies and I wanted a puppy.  How hard could it be???

Otis was a perfect Newf in temperment...a true gentleman.  Easy to train, smart, and a tremendous sense of humor.  His seat was ALWAYS shotgun!  He was also a gigantic guy....WAYYY over the standard (what did I know...isn't bigger better???)  He was almost 35 inches at the shoulder whent the standard is closer to 30 inches.  The breeeder said that his daddy was 185 pounds (again....wayyy over the standard!!!)  None of this bothered me in the least...until he was almost a year old.  We were walking up the driveway and he collapsed...ho wling!  I had NO idea what was wrong and with MUCH effort, got him to the vet's office.   He had NO hip socket on one side and the other side was only marginally better.  We took him to the best orthopedic surgeon in our area who did a total hip replacement for $5000.  After about three weeks of a hellish recovery, he was good to go.  We went on with our joyful life together and everything seemed to be fine.  At three years, his back legs started to tremor and since we had yearly app'ts with the surgeon I trotted him back down to have him checked out.  His spine was in the process of collapsing.  Can we talk about heartbreak???  I'm still heartbroken over it... :'( :'(.  It was unspeakably awful

I was in constant communication with the breeder who offered to give me a new puppy.  Trade in my best friend as if he was a defective Ford????  I don't think so!!!  We ended up having to put him down at almost 4 years old because there wasn't a thing that could be done.  Before we found out about Otis' problems, I had bought a second Newf from the same breeder a year later.  She died about 5 months after Otis from ITP (immune-mediated thrombocyctope nia):  basically a reaction from immunizations.   She was just three.

All of these things could have been avoided if 1) I had done my homework and 2) the breeder had done his homework. 

OFA certification is just a guide.  Bad things can still happen, but you at least you're increasing your odds of getting a healthy dog who will be with you for years and years and years!!!

I wish you all the best of luck in finding a healthy and happy puppy!  I learned the hard way and it's NO fun!!!

Offline renate1

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2006, 07:40:22 pm »
Hi again,
found the article on weak pasterns for Saints, the problem is if the joint comes back farther than perpendicular (foot almost touches leg when bent) with this said Houdine's are fine (this is why I shouldn't go off what's in the top of my head...and also why having the information available is important as well).  Go to www.saintberna rdclub.org for more information regarding breed standard as well as information you can purchase.  Also some other good books besides the one I mentioned earlier are:  "The Saint Bernard Classic" by Albert de la Rie - a great book for the history of the breed.  "All About the St. Bernard" by Rachel Beaver and "The Complete Saint Bernard" by Muggleton & Wensley.  Again I would definitely recommend purchasing some info from the Saint Bernard Club.  Hope all goes well for you and you get the puppy you desire.  They will steal your heart.  Also the price you pay upfront for a pup is minimal compared to vet costs, food, "lodging" etc.  Remember things such as shots, heartworm prevention , etc will all cost more due to the weight of these dogs....almost like taking care of a horse lol!

lins_saving_grace

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2006, 09:47:08 am »
I'm sorry if I came on too strong in my opinion.  Of course we're excited about a puppy for you! :)  Puppies are always fun.  I think we're just being cautious and protective of a potential new addition.  :)  Good luck and let us know what you find out.

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2006, 04:12:14 am »
Oh, Mari! Sorry to threadjack.... I just want to say that you have had such a sad experience with your Newfie babies....you're so awesome for continuing on and staying devoted to these guys!

Lulu, listen to the members here. They are so knowledgeable, and their heartache can save you so much. They're offering it to you...take it. There are so many puppies out there, and each one of them is loveable. But, not each one carries with it the heartache of bad breeding...be selective...yo ur heart deserves it!

Offline sc.trojans

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2006, 10:42:08 pm »

This breeder doesn't sound bad, but her health guarantees are red flags and we are not clear what her contract really offers.  A good breeder should offer a health guarantee to the effect of "if crippling hip OR elbow dysplasia, full refund" as well as lesser issues resulting in specific $ refunds less than the full amount.  In return, I like breeders who also offer to give money back upon my submission of health certifications:  OFA certs at 2 years of age - $ back....Eye cert (CERF) before 1 year of age - $ back...proof of spay/neuter by 1 year of age - $ back etc.

Here is what I post on my website as advice on finding a good breeder:

Reputable breeders do not breed to make money or because they think their dog is cute. Too often, unsuspecting people purchase puppies from backyard breeders or neighbors. More often than not, these dogs are not suitable for breeding and do not have optimal health, optimal temperaments, or optimal structure for the breed.
A good breeder breeds dogs for only one reason – to improve the breed, including health, temperament, and structure. They are driven to contribute something to the breed and work closely within the breed community to accomplish this.

Look for one who:

-Only breeds one or two types of dogs and is deeply knowledgeable about the “breed standard” (the desired structure, size, proportion, coat, color, and temperament) and is breeding in adherence to this standard.

-Explains in detail the health issues common in the breed and specifically in the breeder’s dogs. She explains the potential genetic problems based on ancestral history.

-Provides information on at least 4 generations behind both parents of the puppy – the more the better. Included is cause of death and age at death if known.

-Provides documentation for each parent of health certification appropriate for the breed, including OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) for hips and elbows, CERF for eye certification, heart, thyroid, DNA and blood disorder certifications . Their contract is willing to support these certifications .

-Demonstrates appropriate knowledge of how best to care for the breed based on genetic health predisposition s and needs, including vaccination, chemical exposure, drug contraindicati ons, and diet.

-Is actively involved with the National Breed Club and adheres to its Code of Ethics for Breeders. Good breeders may also actively compete in conformation, obedience, or sport trials.

-Always provides a written contract designed to protect the puppy (not you OR breeder). The contract specifies your obligation for care and health certifications and the breeder’s commitment to support for the lifetime of the puppy, including taking the puppy back should anything interfere with your ability to care for it.

-Requires you to spay or neuter the dog at the appropriate age in the written contract, unless the breeder specifically makes breeding arrangements with you or sells you a puppy for “show”, to ensure protection of the puppy and the breeder’s responsibiliti es as a reputable breeder.

-Feeds high quality nutrition and understands what this means. If the breeder does not feed whole foods (optimal), then at a minimum feeds a high quality kibble without chemical preservatives, low quality ingredients and excessive grains.

-Expects to meet you, and the family, prior to placing a puppy with you and encourages visits. Wants to ensure an appropriate match between your needs and the puppy’s needs and temperament and as a result, interviews you at length about what you are looking for.

-Requires you to explain how this puppy will live, where it will sleep, what rules will be implemented, training provided, and whether someone will be home to attend to its needs.

-Raises its dogs in the home, not in an outdoor kennel, and can show you where the dogs are kept and spend most of their time.

-Encourages you to spend time with the parents, or at least mother, when you visit and has dogs that appear happy, healthy, and excited to meet new people without shying away from visitors or things.

-Does not have puppies regularly available, rather only has a litter when an excellent match between two healthy dogs is found that is believed to positively contribute to the breed. As a result, you will likely wait for your puppy.

In return, a good breeder will require you to commit to her care protocol in order to receive her “health guarantees”, to spay and neuter appropriately to avoid irresponsible breeding outside of your breeder’s program and efforts and to promise to return the dog if you are ever unable to care for it.

If a breeder does not meet these criteria, you are strongly encouraged to walk away. Reputable breeders are not difficult to find, but do require diligence on your part and a willingness to do your homework. Remember, it is well worth this investment to have a healthy and balanced dog who will likely be with you for years to come.

You can find reputable breeders by contacting the national and local breed club for referrals and attending breed specific shows/events to learn more. Remember, a reputable breeder will never sell dogs through a pet store or any other way that allows for a blind purchase of their animal and no way of knowing that the buyer will provide a responsible, lifelong home.

 Good luck!
SC Trojans
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Offline ambulance_Driver

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Re: talked with the breeder...
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2006, 01:57:00 am »
K, my two cents here:  I see several big name breeders who judge and show on the national and world circuts and the one in particular that I'm thinking of breeds giant schnauzers, and she has 30 or so dogs who live outside in their own doggie village, comprised of sheds and runs.  To me this is not acceptable but you know that this woman charges at least $800/dog.  So is she a good breeder?  Also I have looked on the saint bernard club of america's website and several of those breeders who have been in the business a long time have 20 or more dogs.  What do you say to that?  Sure they are all saints but you know they don't live in the house. 
     Please be careful of which breeder you buy from but as a full time emergency medical technician who makes less than $25000 a year pretax I can understand how it can be hard to buy from a "top of the line breeder."  There's no way I could pay $800 or more for a dog.  Even $500 for a dog is pushing it for me.  I take very good care of my furkids but i couldn't pay out that much initially.
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