Author Topic: Why is the AM such a problem?  (Read 22931 times)

Offline Softhug

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Why is the AM such a problem?
« on: January 29, 2006, 11:07:18 pm »
I was checking out some other forums and the discussions were so HEATED about AM's!  I just don't get it!  I know I am new and don't even HAVE mine yet, but why the hate?  I am aware that they aren't AKC registered and that is ok.  I don't plan on breeding.  It just seems so silly to get feathers all ruffled over a breed of dog.  Boggles the mind....
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 12:45:21 am »
I have wondered the same thing before. I think it is a situation where people who love Old English Mastiffs believe that the AM's are "mutts". (And mutt is not a dirty word in my book either way!)

In my opinion, every breed starts somewhere, some are very very old, but then you have the Doberman which is maybe a hundred years old or so... I wonder if they were treated as mutts in the beginning too? If people called them Rottweiler/German Pinscher mixes?  And why do you think there are long-haired Saint Bernards??? From what I have read, it's because the breed was suffering and they had to add some Newfoundland blood to strengthen the genetics!!!  :)

If what they are doing is in attempt to breed strong healthy animals, sounds like a good idea to me.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 12:54:50 am by doghealer »

Offline newflvr

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 12:54:17 am »
I have to agree.  Taking it too the human level...my pedigree stinks!   But we do live long and are pretty healthy!  There's NO royality or Best in Shows in our blood line!  I LOVE the brown Landseers but they aren't AKC 'approved' either.

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 09:36:01 am »
I have wondered the same thing before. I think it is a situation where people who love Old English Mastiffs believe that the AM's are "mutts". (And mutt is not a dirty word in my book either way!)

In my opinion, every breed starts somewhere, some are very very old, but then you have the Doberman which is maybe a hundred years old or so... I wonder if they were treated as mutts in the beginning too? If people called them Rottweiler/German Pinscher mixes?  And why do you think there are long-haired Saint Bernards??? From what I have read, it's because the breed was suffering and they had to add some Newfoundland blood to strengthen the genetics!!!  :)

If what they are doing is in attempt to breed strong healthy animals, sounds like a good idea to me.
It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!

Offline Kermit

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 10:50:35 am »

Quote
It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
Quote

Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
 ;)

Offline Boyle

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 12:39:23 pm »
I don't post often but I just had to jump in here.  I believe one of the main reasons that the discussion gets heated is because a AM is a mix between a OEM and an Anatolian Shepard.  The pups are being touted as a dry-mouthed mastiff with the gentle giant disposition.  What potential owners aren't being told about is the temperment of the Anatolian.  People may wind up with a 200+ lb dog that is possessive, protective and who dislike strangers.  I am not bashing the Anatolian at all.  I have met a couple and they are great dogs.  The problem is when people get a dog without doing the research.  When getting a dog, people really need to do their homework so that the dog they get has the temperment that suits them.  Otherwise, dogs end up being put down or dumped in rescue. 

Offline greek4

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 12:58:48 pm »
I think OEM owners like myself were feeling as if AM breeders were saying our dogs weren't good enough and bragging that AM had no faults like the OEM.  AM owners/breeders were feeling as if OEM owners/breeders were against AM because they are not pure bred.

Strong opinions clashed and will probably clash again.  Hence the fact that someone always tries to end OEM versus AM discussions quickly and quietly.

So, if no one has an issue with it, I think we should drop this thread and agree to disagree.
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Offline Softhug

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 02:18:57 pm »
Well I just appreciate the input and think everyone who posted on the topic handled themselves with grace, OEM or AM owner.  I didn't see anyone getting heated or disrespectful. 

I think no  matter what breed to are looking into, research needs to be done--big paw and tiny paw alike. 

 
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Offline Newf Lover

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 02:25:44 pm »

Quote
It was Newfie & Great Pyr that were crossed with the smooth coated St.'s..Ty! :P ;D lol!
Quote

Please forgive me oh mighty Great Pyrenees, how could I not give you the credit you so rightfully deserve? My apologies forever... I shall now on double-check and cross-reference all my sources for canine history!!
 ;)

I thought that combo was what made up the Leonberger and only the Newfie was used to re-strengthen the Saints genepool?  Too much to remember.  Whatever, I love all dogs, even ugly mutts and foofy poodles.  I agree with people's concern and wariness about genetic meddling and puppy milling, although I don't know anything about this AM issue, so I won't pretend to understand.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 02:28:53 pm by Newf Lover »
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Offline Magnus

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2006, 03:07:16 pm »
I don't post often but I just had to jump in here.  I believe one of the main reasons that the discussion gets heated is because a AM is a mix between a OEM and an Anatolian Shepard.  The pups are being touted as a dry-mouthed mastiff with the gentle giant disposition.  What potential owners aren't being told about is the temperment of the Anatolian.  People may wind up with a 200+ lb dog that is possessive, protective and who dislike strangers.  I am not bashing the Anatolian at all.  I have met a couple and they are great dogs.  The problem is when people get a dog without doing the research.  When getting a dog, people really need to do their homework so that the dog they get has the temperment that suits them.  Otherwise, dogs end up being put down or dumped in rescue. 

I too met with a lot of hostility when doing my initial research in the AM v OEM.  As someone with a new AM puppy I wanted to chime in.  I have been in contact with a number of different AM owners and havent really seen anyone that has a real AS disposition.  I think the cross was 7/8 OEM 1/8 AS.  Now like most dogs their is a spectrum of behaviors that would reflect the OEM side or the AS side.  Most fall in between.  I was initially concerned with the AS as well, but after doing some homework I felt better.  The sad part was when I went to some of the OEM sites, I wasnt really given much help other than saying that the AM is the worst dog ever bred.

As an new parent of an AM, I always point out that he is not an OEM, not as a matter of saying my dog is better, but rather as a show of respect for the OEM. 

I look at the AM as I do other big dogs. For example, I have met and actually had a Rottie that was more protective than most, and have had a rottie that was the most stranger friendly dog I have ever had.  I think what concerns most OEM folks is that some propective oweners may go with an AM over an OEM because they think that the AM is an OEM that doesnt drool or have any faults.  Lets face it if any breed were a perfect breed there would need to be as many rescue groups as there are.

I think most AM breeders point out the whole drool aspect not as drool free but with less drool. This is from one breeders site:
Quote
Fredericka Wagner of Flying W. Farm created the foundation stock of the American Mastiff, infusing Anatolian Mastiffs into the English lines.There is no need to carry a drool rag everywhere you go with an American Mastiff. They do drool, when excited and around food, but really no more than most any other breed of dog. That is a major plus in the live with quotient with these beautiful giants.


Anyway, I think most members of this site are more accepting of all dogs and arent looking to "push" their breed. Its a great forum to ask these questions without getting bashed. Sorry, about the long winded response but I really think that the AM is a wonderful dog.
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Offline greek4

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2006, 03:36:21 pm »
My OEM has FLying W Farms way back in her pedigree.  Just a random fact.
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Offline Softhug

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 03:50:21 pm »
No kidding?!  I think it is great that they have done such a service to both breeds! 
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Offline Anky

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 03:55:29 pm »
Honestly, I think the problem that people have with AMs is that they're coming about in a time where we are over run with "Designer Breed" dogs, and that taints people's opinions.  I'm not judging anyone who has them or anything here I'm just stating my personal opinions on why I would never have one.  I understand the fusing of the Anatolian (7/8 mastiff to 1/8 Anatolian), but I don't like the whole gimmicky "Just as good as an OEM without the health problems and doesn't drool!".  Don't tell me that a giant breed dog isn't going to have giant breed dog health issues.  As for the drooling, I've never met an AM, and I can't say if they drool or not, but I don't like sales pitches when it comes to a 200 pound animal.   

It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM.  One almost exclusively.  I would like to admit that I have never personally contacted Flying W, but I hold very high standards for breeders, and a high quantity of litters has always been a warning sign to me.  I don't trust people who make part of their livelihood from breeding.  If you do it right you lose money.  :)  In addition, on their website it says "Every home should have a Mastiff"  I TOTALLY disagree with that, as I think that the amount of people who should have a giant breed (As in be prepared for their special needs) is in actuality very very small. 

AND.... I don't trust the CKC as far as I can throw them, which would probably be pretty far if they were a tangible being, but as a corporation, they aren't and as such are incapable of being thrown.

For those newcomers here, I'm not a purist, or an elitist.  I don't show (But have nothing against it), my dog is a goofy galumphing imbecile, lacking the elegant grace and alertness, that the standard calls for, and he'll never be bred.  For those of you who have AMs, I wish you well with your puppies and I'm sure you'll enjoy them.  The OP just asked why people have a problem with them, and I stated my issues.  If someone asked me personally point blank if they should get one, honestly I would most likely try to dissuade them, however I wouldn't debase or chastise anyone who chose to bring one into their lives. 

If they don't like your dog, screw 'em. 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 04:06:05 pm by Anky »
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Offline NoDogNow

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 04:09:13 pm »
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It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM.  One almost exclusively

See there: the very thing that bothers some people is the very thing that encourages others--because to me that says that this particular breeder is being careful about her breeding lines and maintaining a strict oversight.  (Or maybe she's taking a lesson from what happened with the foundation Shiloh kennel a few years ago.  Talk about contentious people! ;)

I don't know that either an AM or an OEM is going to end up being on my short list of dogs--but it would be impossible for me to make any kind of reasonable judgement without the conversations around here.  The more I learn, the longer I think it's going to take before I make a decision...


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Offline Anky

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Re: Why is the AM such a problem?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 04:10:39 pm »
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It also bothers me that only a few places "carry" the AM.  One almost exclusively

See there: the very thing that bothers some people is the very thing that encourages others--because to me that says that this particular breeder is being careful about her breeding lines and maintaining a strict oversight.  (Or maybe she's taking a lesson from what happened with the foundation Shiloh kennel a few years ago.  Talk about contentious people! ;)

I agree with stingent breeding guidelines.  After all I have a Chinook, and you don't find those wandering around.  (Oh wait I did, bad example).  But I don't approve of Monopolizing.  How's that? ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 04:24:20 pm by Anky »
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