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BPO General Forum => General Board for Big Dogs with Big Paws => : doggylover June 21, 2006, 12:13:56 AM
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OK this is going to be really hard to explain for those of you who haven't followed my puppy experience. I am really scared right now, and feeling emotional in general tonight over this.
I had a long talk with our breeder tonight. The pups are 1 and 1/2 weeks from going to new homes. The pups were born by emergency c section because one of them died and mom was toxic and could die.
When the pups were born, one of them was tiny. So little that the breeder didn't know if she would live or not. She brought the pups home and nursed the little one around the clock, basically keeping the pup with her all the time. She was tentatively planning on keeping the pup if she lived so when she sent me pics, she didn't include that pup in the pics.
The pup is now thriving wonderfully. She is putting on a lot of weight, and the breeder feels that this pup is one of two that she wants to be able to breed in the future.
(for those who think this sounds fishy, I have reason to have 100% faith that she isn't trying to sell us a sickly pup...)
She said this pup is now gorgeous, thriving, smart, alert, and very mellow. She thinks we would be perfect for her.
Now, hubby is freaking out BIG TIME. He is terrified that if she was that tiny at birth, she could have long term problems and he is upset....he is scared she could be sick or brain damaged or something....
She wasn't in the litter with the other pups, she has been coddled since birth. She was too much smaller than the other pups to be with them. She is smaller than them even now, but she is catching up.
Please tell me what you all think...I'm upset that hubby is so upset, if it would help, I can post pics, but I don't know that you can tell anything by them, she looks healthy to us.
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My thoughts are that size will not matter, the fact that this pup has fought from an early age and has gained weight is a plus as far as I am concerned. In addition, it has been hand reared so will more likely bond with humans to a greater degree. Try for a compromise with hubby and suggest that you take the puppy, subject to an examination by your vet, that way you will have peace of mind that the pup is in the best of health and can avoid any "I told you so's" at a later date.
Andy
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Hi,
Sorry, yes, this was a little difficult to follow. Seems part A started in another thread, but got it figured out.
I am sorry, but I must disagree with many on this board and advise you not to do this. There are too many red flags here. Honestly it would take me all morning to go through them. Follow your dear hubby's instincts here and do not do this.
If you would like an more detailed explanation, I'd be happy to give it over the phone. You can pm me with your phone number and I'd be happy to call you. Also, you really should pm some of the breeders on this list and ask their advise. I believe they can give good insite into responsibiliti es both legally and financially. Some that come to mind are Sarnewfie, Taijinrr, YelenaLevitina, Tanimara, and RedyreRottweil ers.
Deena
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As hard and means as it sounds and going againt majority vote, I personally would not take the pup... Without human intervention, the pup would not have survived and also hasnt learned the social skills that the other pups have learned because of being so small and removed from the litter. You also dont know why that pup wasnt going to survive... if the mother was going to reject the pup it could have some issue that us humans are unaware of until further down the road.
In nature it is the strongest that survive and that is what I would want in my home...
I know it sounds terribly harsh and mean but I want a total package if I am getting a pup not the weakest link but if you do take the pup, I certainly wouldnt pay full price and I am suprised the breeder isnt just placing the pup into a loving home.
I am sure you will make the decesion that fits your family the best and I still will give you all the goo goo ga ga cute responses on pics because they are all so damn cute
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I'd go with a vet's oppinion on the health issues. As for socialization, single pups are NOT always a problem, esp if they have other adult dogs around once they hit the socialization age (6 weeks on is when this happens). A friend had a single pup (going to visit him tomorrow) who has grown into a fine, well adjusted dog. He did have plenty of adult dogs around to socialize him and teach him what a pup needs to know. That, I think, is critical.
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I agree with BabsT and Good Hope. It seems really really strange to me that she would want to breed the runt, that just seems like such a bad idea.
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Gosh...I just don't know...Didn't you say in the other thread that the breeder said all of the pups had show potential & were all magnificant?...The question that comes to mind then is why is she trying to sell you the runt?...Also, weren't your origional intentions to buy a pet quality puppy?...Now she says all the dogs are show quality & I am assuming she want's show quality puppy price for them all or is that a wrong assumtion? :-\...Lastly, at that very young age how can a breeder know if her pups are show/breeding quality?...If this pup does not reach standard for the breed it can't really be shown or bred & being as it is the runt, don't runts often stay smaller than other dogs when they are grown? :-\...Be careful my friend. :) I'd definitly contact some established breeders...Pip pin's breeder is Tanimara here at BPO & I would be happy to p.m. you her e-mail if you like...Then you could include the links to your threads about your situation...Le t me know if you'd like Jackie's e-mail or you could just p.m. her here but I don't know how often she comes by.
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Gosh...I just don't know...Didn't you say in the other thread that the breeder said all of the pups had show potential & were all magnificant?...The question that comes to mind then is why is she trying to sell you the runt?...Also, weren't your origional intentions to buy a pet quality puppy?...Now she says all the dogs are show quality & I am assuming she want's show quality puppy price for them all or is that a wrong assumtion? :-\...Lastly, at that very young age how can a breeder know if her pups are show/breeding quality?...If this pup does not reach standard for the breed it can't really be shown or bred & being as it is the runt, don't runts often stay smaller than other dogs when they are grown? :-\...Be careful my friend. :) I'd definitly contact some established breeders...Pip pin's breeder is Tanimara here at BPO & I would be happy to p.m. you her e-mail if you like...Then you could include the links to your threads about your situation...Le t me know if you'd like Jackie's e-mail or you could just p.m. her here but I don't know how often she comes by.
It would be great if you asked Tanimara to pm me.
Any breeders who are willing to talk with me at more length would be hugely appreciated.
I feel like I'm going to vomit. My gut gut gut instinct is that this feels wrong. Every single solitary time in my life when I ignored my gut, I got NAILED. Oh but I want this puppy so bad it hurts. I want this nagging feeling to go away.
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Gosh...I just don't know...Didn't you say in the other thread that the breeder said all of the pups had show potential & were all magnificant?...The question that comes to mind then is why is she trying to sell you the runt?...Also, weren't your origional intentions to buy a pet quality puppy?...Now she says all the dogs are show quality & I am assuming she want's show quality puppy price for them all or is that a wrong assumtion? :-\...Lastly, at that very young age how can a breeder know if her pups are show/breeding quality?...If this pup does not reach standard for the breed it can't really be shown or bred & being as it is the runt, don't runts often stay smaller than other dogs when they are grown? :-\...Be careful my friend. :) I'd definitly contact some established breeders...Pip pin's breeder is Tanimara here at BPO & I would be happy to p.m. you her e-mail if you like...Then you could include the links to your threads about your situation...Le t me know if you'd like Jackie's e-mail or you could just p.m. her here but I don't know how often she comes by.
It would be great if you asked Tanimara to pm me.Â
Any breeders who are willing to talk with me at more length would be hugely appreciated.Â
I feel like I'm going to vomit. My gut gut gut instinct is that this feels wrong. Every single solitary time in my life when I ignored my gut, I got NAILED. Oh but I want this puppy so bad it hurts. I want this nagging feeling to go away.
Why don't you go ahead & p.m. Jackie (BPO name Tanimara) to tell her your concerns & maybe get some advise...I will call or e-mail her to tell her to come & check for her p.m....Let me know when you've sent it...I really think you'll get good avise from her...She is no nonsense, knowlegable & doesn't candy coat the truth...That is what you need here! :)
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Gosh...I just don't know...Didn't you say in the other thread that the breeder said all of the pups had show potential & were all magnificant?...The question that comes to mind then is why is she trying to sell you the runt?...Also, weren't your origional intentions to buy a pet quality puppy?...Now she says all the dogs are show quality & I am assuming she want's show quality puppy price for them all or is that a wrong assumtion? :-\...Lastly, at that very young age how can a breeder know if her pups are show/breeding quality?...If this pup does not reach standard for the breed it can't really be shown or bred & being as it is the runt, don't runts often stay smaller than other dogs when they are grown? :-\...Be careful my friend. :) I'd definitly contact some established breeders...Pip pin's breeder is Tanimara here at BPO & I would be happy to p.m. you her e-mail if you like...Then you could include the links to your threads about your situation...Le t me know if you'd like Jackie's e-mail or you could just p.m. her here but I don't know how often she comes by.
It would be great if you asked Tanimara to pm me.Â
Any breeders who are willing to talk with me at more length would be hugely appreciated.Â
I feel like I'm going to vomit. My gut gut gut instinct is that this feels wrong. Every single solitary time in my life when I ignored my gut, I got NAILED. Oh but I want this puppy so bad it hurts. I want this nagging feeling to go away.
I'm sorry to switch like this on all of you, I greatly appreciate your time. I just re-read my last post and realized my gut already told me what I needed to do. I am sobbing right now. I know it sounds mellow dramatic, but I have been wishing/dreaming/thinking about this puppy for 3 plus years, and I just emailed the breeder and told her we couldn't take this puppy. I need to go cry right now. I can't believe I did this, it was either strong of me, or paranoid and stupid...right now it feels stupid. I'm blithering cause I'm really upset, and I didn't sleep, from worry.
:'(
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I'm so sorry that you are so sad right now...I feel you :'(...Perhaps the breeder will work something different out with you now...Let us know what she says & again I'm sorry my friend.
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oh dear... :-[
that is always a tough decision...
but I do believe that you have to trust your gut on this one - if it doesn't sound quite right, it probably isn't right...
I'm so sorry.
-k.
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I am so sad for you right now, but I agree that you are doing the right thing by going with your gut feelings. I feel that if she is a really good breeder she'll understand why you feel this way.
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I'm very sorry that you are so sad right now. It is so hard when our heart and head tell us different stories.
I hope this all works out for you. It is a difficult phylosophy to follow sometimes but everything happens for a reason - there is a PERFECT puppy out there waiting to find the perfect family.
Again, I'm sorry
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That was a tough decision to make.
When I have stuff like that happen, I try to tell myself that this means there is something even better waiting for me. This is fate's way of clearing the way. It helps me.
I'm sorry you're feeling so yucky.
Tina
I keep running off to cry, then coming back to check for an email from the breeder. I need to get my perspective back. I didn't have (God forbid) a child die, my village wasn't taken over by hostile rebels, I didn't lose a furkid. I have a happy healthy family, potentially minus one puppy.
OK I think I need to cry again...
:'( :-\
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I'm so sorry! If you're that torn about it, you've made the wise choice to say no. That is often so hard, esp when you've waited SO long! Your dreams have died and that is very sad. :'( Here's to hoping that something will work out soon that you will be able to form new dreams!
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I am sorry, I can only imagine how hard your decision was. I agree with everyone else, you were right to trust your instincts.
Since you always make me laugh, I thought I would give cheering you up a little a shot:
Are You Having a Bad Day?
For all of you who occasionally have a really bad day when you just need to take it out on someone, don't take that bad day out on someone you know.
Instead, take it out on someone unfriendly who you don't know!
Now get this. I was sitting at my desk, when I remembered a phone call I had to make. I found the number and dialed it.
A man answered nicely saying, "Hello?"
I politely said, "This is Patrick Hannifin and could I please speak to Robin Carter?"
Suddenly, the phone was slammed down on me! I couldn't believe that anyone could be that rude.
I tracked down Robin's correct number and called her. I had transposed the last two digits incorrectly.
After I hung up with Robin, I spotted the wrong number still lying there on my desk. I decided to call it again.
When the same person once more answered, I yelled "You're a jackass!" and hung up.
Next to his phone number I wrote the word "jackass," and put it in my desk drawer.
Every couple of weeks, when I was paying bills or had a really bad day, I'd call him up.
He'd answer, and I'd yell, "You're a jackass!"
It would always cheer me up.
Later in the year, the phone company introduced caller ID.
This was a real disappointment for me; I would have to stop calling the jackass.
Then, one day, I had an idea.
I dialed his number, then heard his voice, "Hello."
I made up a name. "Hi, this is Mike Smith with the sales office of the telephone company and I'm just calling to see if you're familiar with our caller ID program?"
He went, "No!" and slammed the phone down.
I quickly called him back and said, "That's because you're a jackass!"
The reason I took the time to tell you this story is to show you how if there's ever anything really bothering you, you can do something about it -- just dial my good ol' friend, the jackass, at 555-1111.
[Keep reading! It gets better.]
An old lady at the mall really took her time pulling out of the parking place. I didn't think she was ever going to leave.
Finally, she got the car in reverse and she began to move ... very slowly backing out of the slot.
I backed up a little more to give her plenty of room to pull out.
Great, I thought, she's finally leaving.
All of a sudden this black Camaro comes flying up the parking aisle in the wrong direction and pulls into her space.
I started honking my horn and yelling, "You can't just do that, Buddy. I was here first!"
The guy climbed out of his Camaro completely ignoring me. He walked toward the mall as if he didn't even hear me.
I thought to myself, "This guy's a jackass!" There sure a lot of jackasses in this world.
Then I noticed he had a "For Sale" sign in the back window of his car. I wrote down the number then hunted for another place to park.
A couple of days later, I'm at home sitting at my desk. I had just gotten off the phone after calling 555-1111 and yelling, "You're a jackass!" (It's really easy to call him now since I have his number on speed dial.)
I noticed the phone number of the guy with the black Camaro lying on my desk and thought I'd better call this guy, too.
After a couple rings, someone answered the phone and said, "Hello."
I said, "Is this the man with the black Camaro for sale?"
"Yes, it is."
"Can you tell me where I can see it?"
"Yes, I live at 1802 West 34th street. It's a yellow house and the car's parked right out front."
I said, "What's your name?"
"My name is Don Hansen."
"When's a good time to catch you, Don?"
"I'm home in the evenings."
"Listen Don, can I tell you something?"
"Yes."
"Don, you're a jackass!" And I slammed the phone down.
After I hung up, I added Don Hansen's number to my speed dialer.
For a while, things seemed to be going better for me.
Now, when I had a problem, I had two jackasses to call.
Then, after several weeks of calling the jackasses and hanging up on them, it just wasn't as enjoyable as it used to be.
I gave the problem some serious thought and came up with a solution.
First, I had my phone dial Jackass #1.
A man answered nicely saying, "Hello."
I yelled "You're a jackass!", but I didn't hang up.
The jackass said, "Are you still there?"
I said, "Yeah."
He said, "Stop calling me."
I said, "No."
He said, "What's your name, Pal?"
I said, "Don Hansen."
He said "Where do you live?"
"1802 West 34th Street. It's a yellow house and my black Camaro's parked out front."
"I'm coming over right now, Don. You'd better start saying your prayers."
"Yeah, like I'm really scared, Jackass!" and I hung up.
Then I called Jackass #2.
He answered, "Hello."
I said, "Hello, Jackass!"
He said, "If I ever find out who you are..."
"You'll what?"
"I'll kick your butt."
"Well, here's your chance. I'm coming over right now, Jackass!" And I hung up.
Then I picked up the phone and called the police. I told them I was at 1802 West 34th Street and that I was going to kill my brother-in-law as soon as he got home.
I made another quick call to Channel 13 about the gang war going down on West 34th Street.
After that, I climbed into my car and headed over to 34th Street to watch the whole thing.
Glorious! Watching two Jackasses throwing punches and kicking one another in front of 6 squad cars, a police helicopter, and channel 13 news cameras!!!
It was one of the greatest experiences of my life!
Name withheld to protect the guilty.
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BWAHAHAHAHA!! That's hilarious!!!!! Made my day!
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA if that doesn't make you laugh, nothing will!
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OMG!!! That joke is the most hilarious thing I've ever heard...I'm laughing so hard I have tears coming down my face and I can't breath!!!
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So, I'm still just a little confused. Was this the ONLY puppy the breeder had set aside for you guys to have? Are you saying she had never intended for you to have one of the healthier ones? Or that she was, but now she has changed her mind and is saying this one or none? If any of these are the case, that is not fair and I would certainly find a new breeder, even thought I know it feels like you'll never find your puppy. You will. Have faith!
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LOLOLOL I was just about to tell you thank you so much for the joke, but I would rather have my puppy! When, all of a sudden, I got an email back from the breeder...she said, of course I would get another female from this litter, not to worry!
So, I got a HILARIOUS joke AND a robust PUPPY!
Thank you everyone!!!!!
:D
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I am so glad to hear that you will still be getting a puppy. I had a feeling that she might be willing to help yoo out once you explained to her how you felt.
Now, when do I get to meet her?
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LOLOLOL I was just about to tell you thank you so much for the joke, but I would rather have my puppy! When, all of a sudden, I got an email back from the breeder...she said, of course I would get another female from this litter, not to worry!
So, I got a HILARIOUS joke AND a robust PUPPY!
Thank you everyone!!!!!
:DÂ
That is so awesome!!!!!! Yeeeeeeha!!!!! Great news for you! Can't wait to see a bazillion pics!
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I am so glad to hear that you will still be getting a puppy. I had a feeling that she might be willing to help yoo out once you explained to her how you felt.
Now, when do I get to meet her?
We will be at the Portland Meet and Greets! She will be the little one in the purple backpack with the pink collar and the little angle wings secured on her back! Also in tow will be Mr. Pookie, who will likely look ticked off and displaced!
YAYAYAYAYAY
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I'm so glad everything worked out for you. What an emotional roller coaster ride you've been on!
Heres hoping everything goes smooth for you from here on out :)
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I'm SO happy you are still getting your puppy!...You were so clearly distraught & heartbroken... YYYYIIIIIPPPPP PPPPEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEE for puppies! ;D
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I'm so glad everything worked out for you. What an emotional roller coaster ride you've been on!
Heres hoping everything goes smooth for you from here on out :)
I'm so glad everything worked out for you. What an emotional roller coaster ride you've been on!
Heres hoping everything goes smooth for you from here on out :)
LOL yeah, what a ride. I told hubby today that I'm not as excited as I was before, just too much up and down stuff...I don't think I rebound that quickly. He said, when we go up to get our new baby, I'll about pass out from happiness!
He knows me so well!
:D
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OK roughly an hour ago, I posted my last thing about it all being fine. Got an email from her about how...well, I'll just copy the body here (btw, I blamed it on hubby,he was more concerned than I was and he said that was OK with him):
Rhonda,
I can understand what your husband is saying. Certainly there could be problems down the road, but that can happen with the biggest, robust pups too. We can still work out something maybe on a different girl. They are growing and changing so much everyday.
Like I said don't worry you will still be getting a female out of this litter.
OK that was the end of the email I got, then I posted my happy post here about how we would get a puppy. Now, about 10 minutes ago, I get this email:
Rhonda,
I have to be honest and upfront here ......... It doesn't sit well with me that your husband has no trust is my decision to sell you a specific puppy. This tells me there will most likely be problems down the road when it comes time for the puppies to be born and while you are raising them. I have tried this in the past and it never worked out as per the agreement. As I told you last night this is a rarity for me to even offer as I have been burned in the past. I do believe you are appreciative and sincere but your husband is not and I do not want to cause a rift in your marriage.
Why would I sell you a pup that I want puppies back out of it I was concerned about her health?? With any pup there is always a chance something could happen or that they don't turn out like one hopes. So if she didn't turn out to be show you are not out any more money. You are paying for a pet quality pup .......worst case that is what you would end up with. I am the one loosing out giving you a show girl for a pet price and hoping you will honor the agreement we put together. All the risk is on my end.
I will see what the girls look like just proir to your arrival and I will decide if I want to risk sending you with a show girl or not.
Take care,
(I have edited out her name and kennel name because I don't want to disparage her reputation)
WTF???????????
OK then I sent this email back:
I am suprised and worried about your last email. We never heard anything about this little girl until last night...she wasn't even included in the first pictures you sent us. I am sure you can see the concern regarding this little puppy (she is adorable by the way) since you mentioned that you didn't think she would make it in the beginning. We have every intention of following through, to the letter of everything we promise you. I would never agree to anything that my husband wasn't behind, and neither of us would sign a contract with you, or give you our word that we would do something and then not follow through on that promise.
I feel like the relationship between us is similiar to how I would feel about you if you were giving us your child. We both respect you and appreciate what you do more than you can possibly know. The only concern David has is based on what you told me, that she started out sooo weak.
If you feel that you can't trust us to honor our word concerning the breeding thing, I wish you would tell us that now, so that I don't spend the next 10 days up and down, wondering if we will get a puppy. I understand where you are coming from and would respect that decision.
I'm very saddened at this turn...I hope we can find a way to get past it, I think if we can, you will look back on this as a bump at the beginning of a long trustworthy relationship.
Please do let me know of your decision as soon as you can, this is causing me a lot of pain and worry.
Ronda
Am I crazy? Am I delusional? Is this a nightmare? WTF? Am I not getting something here? I don't understand any of this. I don't understand what is happening here. What is this?
I can't handle this...I'm sick, I now have diarrhea, I am about to vomit. My head hurts. I feel like I'm failing a really hard test. ??? :'( >:( :(
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I think this breeder is beginning to sound like a Flake. >:(
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It is starting to look that way to me also. Why would she continue to torture you like this?
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Please you guys, I can handle it, tell me if I'm the one wrong here? I hope I am, tell me I'm out of line.
I'm just sobbing now.
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I do not think you are out of line here. It seems to me like she is twisting things around.
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You have every right in the world to question the choice of puppy that she wants to give you. I don't like the fact that she is basically saying that you can't question her on this matter. I'm sorry that you are going through this right now.
Kat
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Having gone through a couple of breeders, I really think that's just how breeders are. I've read the emails and from what I can figure out, she just wants to be able to continue her line and is trying to maintain control. That's what breeders like to do. They do think of these pups as their own flesh and blood and that's a good thing. I like it that she's so concerned about the stability of the pup's future home. I completely understand your hesitation in taking the smallest puppy, and with the terms she's set and it certainly is your right not to agree to them. Try not to take it personally, go see her, see the pups, and try to move past the hurt feelings. I think you are both on the same side of the fence and just can't see it....
of course, only my opinion.... ;)
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Skip the e-mails and get her on the phone. That way you may get a better read on her. I know when I have my first litter I am going to make the new mommies and daddies crazy. I am going to want to know everything about the home. I am sure I will second guess myself at least a dozen time on each pup. My hubby is sure that I will keep all of the first litter. ::) He does know me! ;)
If this is the start of you learning to breed there will be tons of ups and downs along that road. I am sure I am going to have lots of bumps along the way.
Lisa
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I need to calm down and think. I just need to get a grip and think. I was going to email her, now I'm wondering if this is all normal, after reading your last two posts...
I need to calm down and think for a few minutes.
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Just my opinion, and against the flow here, but an arrangement like that would not work with me. My dogs are like MY kids, and no virtual stranger, no matter how well intentioned is going to have that much control over them , or me. Listen to yourself. The games are making you physically ill. The first question I would have to ask is: Is this worth it? With so many breeders availible, so many dogs for rescueing, so many options, is this worth this?
Then you have your answer.
Stella
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I agree with Lisa...Get on the phone to get a better feel for this breeder & she can get a better feel for you!...I also agree with Stella...I am beginnign to wonder if this woman has control issues beyond concern for her dogs...It just doesn't set well with me & my true nature is that of a trusting person...But I have learned life lessons in protecting myself & trusting my gut feeling...Befo re you go any further I think you should call & talk to her though...Deep breaths girlfriend...I t will be alright. :-*
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It sounds to me like the breeder is way out of line, not you.
In the agreement that has been proposed, you are taking all the risk, the expense, the time, and the breeder gets the best half of the litter? This may sound really harsh to you, but I think that the breeder is trying to take advantage here.
Finally, I think that you should consider getting the pet-quality pup that you originally agreed to or getting your deposit back. From what you've posted here, it doesn't sound to me like this breeder is someone with whom you could have a long-term relationship.
I sincerely hope that you are feeling better soon.
Sofia
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OK I have made a decision and I think I was very clear and hopefully fair. I just sent this email to her:
I have been sitting here feeling physically ill since sending that last mail. Actually since last night. Until a few days ago, we believed that our girl was in the pictures you sent us with the 5 pups. We never heard about a very sick puppy.
At this point I think it would be a mistake to write up a contract for a future breeding because I would be morally bound to do what I said I would do, and things have gotten very unclear and uncomfortable for me now.
If in the next week you realize that one of the three girls that were in the picture you sent us is turning out to be a pet quality puppy, please let us know. We still desperately want to do what we planned to do up until a few days ago, which was to have a healthy, pet quality girl out of the five you presented to us.
If you feel like I am being unreasonable (and maybe I am, I don't much about this process) then could you please just refund the money we have paid and neither of us will have to feel like we were dealt with in an unfair manner? I don't want you feeling like you are taking 'all of the risk' here. I don't want things to feel bad. I just wanted a cute healthy pet quality puppy.
Let me know if you need the address to send the money back, I sincerely hope it doesn't work out that way. I will be in touch close to the 1st if I haven't heard back from you...
Ronda
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What a nightmare. I'm so sorry you are going through this.
I agree that you will get a much better sense of things by talking to her on the phone... but... based on those emails I simply do not trust that breeder. It sounds like she is trying to take advantage of you. If communication is this hard now, what will happen in the future when you are dealing with her? We are talking about years that you will be tied to this person if you sign a contract! Also... if you do sign some kind of contract... best get a lawyer to read over that thing so you can protect yourself!!!!
Good luck, I really hope something works out, I want you to have a puppy but I can't stand that you are being put in this position. Ugh. Too much drama!
Please take care of yourself right now!!!! Feel better! Remember to breathe!!!!
:-*
EDITED: OK my post went up the same time as yours... sounds like you sent the PERFECT email to her! Best of luck!
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I had a lengthy convo with her last night on the phone. I am hesitant to talk with her on the phone at this point because I am really emotional and things feel fuzzy. I feel like I have needed some time to think in between messages with her. This is a nightmare. Who'd a thunk nightmares sometimes had puppies in them?
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I hope you don't mind that I e-mailed Jackie (Tanimara) with the links to your threads....Jac kie is someone I trust very much, has been breeding her lines for 20 plus yrs. & I bought a wonderful pyrfect Pyr from...I p.m.'d you her reply...I hope this all will turn out well for you!
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I think you're making the right decision by going with the pet quality. This lady seems like she'd give you a really hard time in the future and I think it'd be risky for you. She said she's had problems in the past but those emails kind of make me wonder if these problems were from her being so demanding and controlling. There are other pups out there if she doesn't work out and follow your instincts.
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I hope you don't mind that I e-mailed Jackie (Tanimara) with the links to your threads....Jac kie is someone I trust very much, has been breeding her lines for 20 plus yrs. & I bought a wonderful pyrfect Pyr from...I p.m.'d you her reply...I hope this all will turn out well for you!
On the contrary...tha nk you so much Gyps. That was kind.
:'(
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You're welcome Rhonda...How is Mr. Butt Stench holding up through this?...I bet he is concerned about his mama, bless his little heart!
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You're welcome Rhonda...How is Mr. Butt Stench holding up through this?...I bet he is concerned about his mama, bless his little heart!
ROFL I LOVE YOU! Um Mr. Butt stench, in addition to being rather 'tinky' as hubby calls him, is also very uncuddly unless he is hungry. Every since this started, he has been kissy kissy kissy. Oh mommy let me rest my head in your lap, oh mommy..you need more kisses, here mommy lets sit together and snuggle, I wont even sit on your head... I think he knows all of whats going on and he is letting me know, we don't need any silly little puppy anyway, look how perfect were are, just us THREE...
:D
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My heart goes out to you for having to go through all of this! I konw when I got my 2, I was lucky with the breeders and things just fellinto place. Now I see it's not always that way. I pray that whatever happens, it will be the best thing for you and your family. I would take a few minutes, hours, whatever you need to talk to yourself, get your thoughts gathered, and then call her. If it helps, write down the main things you plan to say. I don't think you are being unreasonable AT ALL! Nothing of your e-mails points to you being in the wrong here at all. But it's easy to let our feelings take control of us. Just relax. You have to step back for a little. I know you want this so badly. I've felt this too. Just step back. And then make your decisons. I'm so sorry it's happening like this though.
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You're welcome Rhonda...How is Mr. Butt Stench holding up through this?...I bet he is concerned about his mama, bless his little heart!
ROFL I LOVE YOU! Um Mr. Butt stench, in addition to being rather 'tinky' as hubby calls him, is also very uncuddly unless he is hungry. Every since this started, he has been kissy kissy kissy. Oh mommy let me rest my head in your lap, oh mommy..you need more kisses, here mommy lets sit together and snuggle, I wont even sit on your head... I think he knows all of whats going on and he is letting me know, we don't need any silly little puppy anyway, look how perfect were are, just us THREE...
:D
Well, we must consider Mr. Butt Stench now don't we? :D I figured he'd be more clingy than usual...Aftera ll little boys love their mommies. :) Hear anymore from the breeder?...This is about killing me...I can't even begin to imagine the stress it is causing you...Hang in there! :-*
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Oh good gravy! What a drama packed event! I hope things get straightened out very very very soon.
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Oh good gravy! What a drama packed event! I hope things get straightened out very very very soon.
Thanks... me too. In the meantime, can I come to your house and hide under the bed with Ladybug? I'm totally feeling the Bug right now...
:) :'( :-\
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Im sorry you have to deal with this :( I know how it feels though....when I was looking for a dane, before I found Grey. I had talked to a breeder and been approved for a beautiful brindle show girl. i was so excited, even had her name picked out, and Ben was even excited. Then out of no where the breeder called me and said she changed her mind, she didnt feel comfortable with me having her ??? After I got off the phone with her, I cryed and cryed :'( I felt like such an awful person, it broke my heart. If you ever want I will be more then happy to send Gauge your way for a few LOL ;D
edited to add.....Things do happen for a reason...if I would of got that brindle girl I wouldnt have Mr. Grey....And I am thrilled to share my life with him :)
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Well, today we got another mail from our breeder. As frustrated as I am over all this, I like her a lot (um not every minute, but overall)...So this is all very confusing. As of right now, she says of course we will get a female. This makes little sense to me. I actually feel pretty numb. I'm hoping, but not really believing this is going to happen. I guess that will be more clear Sunday the 2nd when we either have her or we don't. If we do get her, I'll read this post if I feel at all irritable that she is keeping us up at night.
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You'll come home with your little girl!...Relax!...Why do I have somewhat of a feeling there might have been a misunderstandi ng between you & the breeder? :-\
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I think things will work out with this breeder. I just think, when waiting for a pup, that you can get SOOO emotionally involved that any little thing can just set you over the edge.
While we were waiting for Chester, we got a call from the breeder that there was something wrong with his heart and the breeder wanted to keep him for a few more weeks. Talk about tears and panic! I was devastated! I had booked my flight to go get him, and as far as I was concerned, that was MY baby and my arms just ached to hold him. When I talked to the vets, (yep, we've got multiples!) they all advised me against getting him. The only smart thing I did was call a vet. cardiologist who specialized in Newfs. She said exactly what the breeder said....that waiting was good. At 12 weeks we could determine how serious the problem was....not at 8 weeks. At 12 weeks, the problem was gone. But for that whole month, I whined!! ;)
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I am sooo not perfect, so uh.... human! I am crossing my fingers, hoping there was just a big miscommunicati on (on both our parts) and that it will all be ok, and we will have our baby in a week. Who knows, maybe in a year or two, we will be back up there for another puppy!
I can tell you one thing though, I'm not putting the puppy pics back up on my refrigerator, the nightstand and the living room wall, until we have her!
:)
Heart problems? OMG I think I would have had to go to therapy while I waited for Chester!
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Maybe we can untangle this a little. :-* ;) I can't believe you're as calm as you are!
I went back and read a whole BUNCH of your posts to see if I could find where this went haywire. Can I just clarify for a minute what I understand?
You've been looking for a while for a little girl, and found this particular breeder after much toil, strife and disappointment .
The breeder sent you pictures of a litter of 5 puppies, and said that one of the females would be yours.
A few days ago, the breeder contacted you and offered you a puppy that she wanted to keep in her BREEDING line, but couldn't keep. She was willing to let you have this 'Potential Puppy Mama' girl for pet price, under some specific terms about breeding her and splitting the future litter (or 2.) The PPM was NOT one of the puppies from the pictures.
Then you learn that the PPM was apparently small and sick when born--some have used the term runt--and you became concerned about the health of the PPM and the possible outcomes of taking her, particularly since the breeder considers her a PPM and defintely wants to have puppies from her.
The breeder is wondering if her trust in your household has been misplaced, because now there's a question about her credibility in offering you the PPM, as opposed to one of the puppies you've seen pictures of. However, the breeder is absolutely prepared to let you have one of the females from the picture, as agreed before the whole question of the PPM girl came up.
Have I got the series of events about right, minus all your VERY understandable emotional stress?
Here's my 2 cents, and take it for what it's worth.
It makes total sense to me that a breeder might not mention a 'tough start' puppy until that puppy's health had proven sound. However, there are a lot of puppies who are small and sickly at birth who grow up to be very healthy, active, happy dogs. Yes, it's true that some runts have problems all their lives; but that's not a hard and fast rule at all.
Some of the toughest, smartest, hardest-hunting dogs I've ever seen started out as the runt of their litters, and one of the best stock dogs was, too. My uncle's Saint Janey was the runt of her litter and had a hole in her heart. It closed on it's own and she went on to win a number of best bitch and best of breed ribbons in her show career, and had 2 gorgeous litters, none of which had any heart problems. Just because a puppy starts slow doesn't mean it won't catch up and even surpass its sibs. :)
I can totally understand your concern about her start, but I think the relevant issue is how she is NOW. Talk to tbe breeder, and try to get a clearer understanding of the PPM's medical history. Why did she have such a rough start--for example, was something congenitally not quite developed that has fully resolved (like a heart valve) or maybe simply a matter of not being able to get enough food, and supplementing her resolved the problem?
She should be able to clearly and confidently explain the medical issues to you and how and why they've been resolved. (If you eventually DO breed, someday YOU might have a small sick puppy, and you would need to know this stuff.) She should also be glad to refer you to her vet, and be more than happy to have you talk to him/her, so you can ask the vet as the prospective owner of the PPM what his/her evaluation of the puppy's health is and whether he/she thinks that the breeder's evaluation of the puppy as breeding quality is accurate.
If she can give you a solid understanding of the PPM's medical history, and the vet gives you an enthusiastic thumbs up, then talk again with the breeder about going ahead with your previous plan of working with the breeder to learn to show and let her mentor you as a breeder. Clearly, you'll need to work a lot more on communicating more effectively, but I don't get the sense that either of you is an unreasonable or untrustworthy person. I think you're both just fogged over with the idea of puppy breath... ;) ;D ;D
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I am sooo not perfect, so uh.... human! I am crossing my fingers, hoping there was just a big miscommunicati o n (on both our parts) and that it will all be ok, and we will have our baby in a week.
I would think there was something seriously wrong with you if you didn't react in the way you have. You've fallen in love already! It's okay! I'm positive it was just miscommunicati on. I really think both you and the breeder want what's best for the puppy....and I think YOU are best!!!
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Maybe we can untangle this a little. :-*Â ;) I can't believe you're as calm as you are!
I went back and read a whole BUNCH of your posts to see if I could find where this went haywire. Can I just clarify for a minute what I understand?
You've been looking for a while for a little girl, and found this particular breeder after much toil, strife and disappointment .
The breeder sent you pictures of a litter of 5 puppies, and said that one of the females would be yours.
A few days ago, the breeder contacted you and offered you a puppy that she wanted to keep in her BREEDING line, but couldn't keep. She was willing to let you have this 'Potential Puppy Mama' girl for pet price, under some specific terms about breeding her and splitting the future litter (or 2.) The PPM was NOT one of the puppies from the pictures.
Then you learn that the PPM was apparently small and sick when born--some have used the term runt--and you became concerned about the health of the PPM and the possible outcomes of taking her, particularly since the breeder considers her a PPM and defintely wants to have puppies from her.
The breeder is wondering if her trust in your household has been misplaced, because now there's a question about her credibility in offering you the PPM, as opposed to one of the puppies you've seen pictures of. However, the breeder is absolutely prepared to let you have one of the females from the picture, as agreed before the whole question of the PPM girl came up.
Have I got the series of events about right, minus all your VERY understandable emotional stress?
Here's my 2 cents, and take it for what it's worth.
It makes total sense to me that a breeder might not mention a 'tough start' puppy until that puppy's health had proven sound. However, there are a lot of puppies who are small and sickly at birth who grow up to be very healthy, active, happy dogs. Yes, it's true that some runts have problems all their lives; but that's not a hard and fast rule at all.Â
Some of the toughest, smartest, hardest-hunting dogs I've ever seen started out as the runt of their litters, and one of the best stock dogs was, too. My uncle's Saint Janey was the runt of her litter and had a hole in her heart. It closed on it's own and she went on to win a number of best bitch and best of breed ribbons in her show career, and had 2 gorgeous litters, none of which had any heart problems. Just because a puppy starts slow doesn't mean it won't catch up and even surpass its sibs. :)
I can totally understand your concern about her start, but I think the relevant issue is how she is NOW. Talk to tbe breeder, and try to get a clearer understanding of the PPM's medical history. Why did she have such a rough start--for example, was something congenitally not quite developed that has fully resolved (like a heart valve) or maybe simply a matter of not being able to get enough food, and supplementing her resolved the problem?
She should be able to clearly and confidently explain the medical issues to you and how and why they've been resolved. (If you eventually DO breed, someday YOU might have a small sick puppy, and you would need to know this stuff.) She should also be glad to refer you to her vet, and be more than happy to have you talk to him/her, so you can ask the vet as the prospective owner of the PPM what his/her evaluation of the puppy's health is and whether he/she thinks that the breeder's evaluation of the puppy as breeding quality is accurate.
If she can give you a solid understanding of the PPM's medical history, and the vet gives you an enthusiastic thumbs up, then talk again with the breeder about going ahead with your previous plan of working with the breeder to learn to show and let her mentor you as a breeder. Clearly, you'll need to work a lot more on communicating more effectively, but I don't get the sense that either of you is an unreasonable or untrustworthy person. I think you're both just fogged over with the idea of puppy breath... ;) ;D ;D
First of all, there are two of me involved in this. There is the me part that yesterday had diarrhea and vomited, I got so upset, and there is the me who is thinking each step of the way what I need vs. what I can 'give up', and trying as best as I can to have an open mind to the fact that I may be the problem here (due to my lack of understanding of proper breeder policies).
The offer to breed a 'show' puppy was flattering and very exciting. We very definately decided to do that. There are two issues with that. Our preference would be, from the start, to get a 'pet quality' puppy and not do the breeding thing with a 'show puppy'. Unfortunately, after having been told that there was a pet puppy in the group of three girls (which were in the pictures), not even a week later, we were told that all of the puppies in the ENTIRE litter were show quality, but that if we would like, we could get a show pup for pet price if we did the breeding thing. Keep in mind that one day we had a pic of three girls, one of whom would be our pet puppy, then within a few days, we are told that they are all show quality and now that puppy will have 'strings'. THEN we were told about this other little girl puppy, who was 'so tiny and struggled so much that we didn't think she would survive', and that she too was show quality, and would have the 'strings' of breeding attached.
(this entire post so far is MY perception, your post is likely how the breeder feels, from her side...if I was her, I wouldn't necessarily think I had done anything wrong, it's all just two sides of the same coin).
We are now thinking, in the wild, the little girl would have died. She had to be nursed along, with no real contact with mom or the other pups. In terms of strength of the breed (don't all hate me now, I WANT this little girl, very very bad)I wonder if she should have been helped SO much.
SIDEBAR:
When our dog Badger was two weeks old he was abandoned by his momma. He spent his days bullying his little sisters. Our dog is dog-retarded socially. He has NO idea how to be around other dogs. He isn't mean, he is just awkward. He has a friend who he loves, but if we take him to the dog park, he will go off by himself and other dogs have to come over to him. If another dog bites him, he does nothing, just cowers and runs behind me and cries. We would really like a pup who has had 'normal' social development.
Our issue with this little girl isn't that we want 'perfection' if we did, we'd have gotten a show pup. We don't care if she has a big white spot on her head, or if one of her ears flips up and makes her look ridiculous. All we want, is a healthy robust pet puppy with most of her fingers and toes, and some puppy breath. We consulted with our vet and were told that, unfortunately, this pup could have neurological/health problems that go undetected for years...as a direct result of her almost dying at birth.
If we were taking a rescue, and I knew there were going to be issues, this would be fine. I don't do rescue because I know myself and I get WAYYYYYYYY to attached to take risks with health. By the end of the summer, we will have spent close to $10,000 for Badger on surgery alone. We would live in our car if we had to give up everything for surgery to give him another year.
Knowing this about ourselves, we are trying desperately to hedge our bets and get a puppy with the odds strongly in her favor.
BTW, did I mention that the little puppy has wormed her sweet little way into my heart and I BADLY want her? Honest to God, if the breeder offered to GIVE us the little angel girl for FREE, I would decline, we are that scared about future problems (unless she was going to otherwise be homeless in which case we would take her and spend a fair amount of time praying).
I suspect I sound awful here, but my only goal is to get a healthy puppy, with the very best odds. All I want to do is get what we were promised, with a healthy strong puppy.
Attached is a pic of the little doll, so you can really feel my PAIN. She is tooooooo cute. She is the Fawn, on top. The last few days she has spent 'limited' time with her sibs...
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This is so irritating. She needs to shut her pie hole and give you a wonderful healthy girl like she said time and time again she was going to do. Just my opinion here. :p
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She IS precious.
Here's the thing. I completely understand about only wanting a healthy dog. When we got Chester, it was after losing two Newfs in the same year at age three from two different causes AND adopting Cowboy who immediately started seizing....ful l blown epilepsy!! ALL I wanted was a HEALTHY Newf who had a reasonable chance to make it to a ripe old age. That's why all the vets told me not to take Chester....the y had been with me through that whole awful year and they were scared I'd lose it (I already had!!). At some point however, I was just convinced that life is always a gamble and there are NO guarantees in life. So, with only the cardiologist on my side, I waited the month until Chester was declared fine....and the first stop after we got home was for him to be checked out by that same person. There was NO sign of a heart problem. I guess my point in this long drawn-out saga, is that you should follow your heart AND gut. If your gut says to walk away...listen. Your heart will mend and someone else will take the gamble with that sweet little girl. Getting a healthy dog is whole point. But if you decide to take the gamble, quit worrying and enjoy the patooties out of her.
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LOLOL you two are so sweet, Mommy of Schnauzers, for defending your friend (me) to the end! Newflover, for all your kind words, and support.
Everyone has been really wonderful through all this. Last night I was laying in bed with Hubby, saying I didn't know how I would have kept any clarity at all through this without you guys.
I want this little 'patootie' so bad I can taste it! She is a precious little angel! My fear is just too great!
I don't really think the breeder is up to anything anything anything...I just think there have been communication issues combined with high emotion on my part.
Mommy, if we get up there on the first and she won't give us a puppy, I'll tell her you said to 'shut her pie-hole' and give us our puppy! :D
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Doggylover, I think you should print out what you just wrote and what Newflvr just wrote on getting a healthy puppy. And read them back to yourself when you are feeling weak & especially BEFORE you go visit the breeder. Relax, It will all work out in the end.
And give stink-butt a pat for me.
Brandon
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It'll work! ;D Now get your bootie into chat! :D
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I am kind of curious about how often a whole litter of pups is show quality...& I still want to know how a breeder kn ows when the pups are that young ecspecially with the runt who may not meet standard...Thi s is confusing to me.
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I am kind of curious about how often a whole litter of pups is show quality...& I still want to know how a breeder kn ows when the pups are that young ecspecially with the runt who may not meet standard...Thi s is confusing to me.
yeah, I dont know that either, I thought show quality was less common...I think that is part of the confusion on my part, part of the frustration.
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Hey...I found a link that may or or may not help you...It seemed relevant anyway. ;D
http://regaliapyrs.tripod.com/questions_to_ask__breeder.htm#Evaluate%20The%20Breeder
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I have been told that "show pick" is just as good as the person doing the picking.
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Hey...I found a link that may or or may not help you...It seemed relevant anyway. ;D
http://regaliapyrs.tripod.com/questions_to_ask__breeder.htm#Evaluate%20The%20Breeder
Gypsy -
some very good items to consider in this link!
-k.
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Hey...I found a link that may or or may not help you...It seemed relevant anyway. ;D
http://regaliapyrs.tripod.com/questions_to_ask__breeder.htm#Evaluate%20The%20Breeder
This is an awesome site, Gypsy! We aren't looking for a pup but someday in the future it may come in handy.
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OH COOL thanks Gyps!!!!
The pupper is a Bullmastiff. These particular puppies are furry and soft and they have puppy breath and sharp little teeth, and roundy little bellies for petting. Also, they are super cute and look cuddly and I think they make little grunty slurpy snorty sounds.
I'm digressing again...
:D :o
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OH COOL thanks Gyps!!!!
The pupper is a Bullmastiff. These particular puppies are furry and soft and they have puppy breath and sharp little teeth, and roundy little bellies for petting. Also, they are super cute and look cuddly and I think they make little grunty slurpy snorty sounds.Â
I'm digressing again...
:D :o
I can't wait to see what kind of shape you're in after you get your puppy on Sunday! :D
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I realized today with no small amount of horror that this thing with the breeder was my fault. I really didn't give our breeder the benefit of the doubt, I've never worked with a breeder before, and didn't know how it all worked. She has some difficulty with communication and instead of trying to figure out better what was happening, I freaked out and 'accused' her of all kinds of shady business because I allowed my emotions to take over. The only reason I am posting this right now is because I feel like I implied wrongdoing on her part and I need to correct that. I also apologized to her.
Sometimes in life we screw up and are totally unaware of it at the time. It's humiliating to figure it out after you already acted like a jerk.
My emotions have just been all over the place over this puppy. One thing is for sure, I'm NEVER having skin kids. There is no way I could handle that.
:-[
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Please don't beat yourself up. As we've all been talking about, getting a new life (skin OR fur) is so awe-inspiring, so exciting, so full of promise, that you can't help but become over-emotional. If the breeder has done this a time or two before, she's probably used to it. The easy part is probably the puppies. The toughest part is dealing with those who adopt them! ;)
You'll be fine, she'll be fine, and the pupperino will be home soon!!!
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I realized today with no small amount of horror that this thing with the breeder was my fault. I really didn't give our breeder the benefit of the doubt, I've never worked with a breeder before, and didn't know how it all worked. She has some difficulty with communication and instead of trying to figure out better what was happening, I freaked out and 'accused' her of all kinds of shady business because I allowed my emotions to take over. The only reason I am posting this right now is because I feel like I implied wrongdoing on her part and I need to correct that. I also apologized to her.Â
Sometimes in life we screw up and are totally unaware of it at the time. It's humiliating to figure it out after you already acted like a jerk.Â
My emotions have just been all over the place over this puppy. One thing is for sure, I'm NEVER having skin kids. There is no way I could handle that.Â
:-[
Sorry...I still don't think you acted like a jerk at all!...& I think you are giving youself too little credit! :-* ...But, what I care about most, is that you get your sweet little girl home & into your arms where she belongs...The rest is just incidental. ;) :) :-*
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Sorry...I still don't think you acted like a jerk at all!...& I think you are giving youself too little credit! :-* ...But, what I care about most, is that you get your sweet little girl home & into your arms where she belongs...The rest is just incidental. ;) :) :-*
My mom told me something about people in general, a long time ago that I try to think about in my dealings with people. I consider it an important thing to keep in mind.
"When you adore someone, that person can say just about anything and you give them the benefit of the doubt, and filter it to make the best of it; When you hate someone, they can't tell you you are beautiful in the 'right-enough' way"...
Heh...in other words, you like me so you are biased, so your opinion doesn't count! LOL I'm teasing about this last part, sort of...Thank you for the unwavering support, it means a lot to me.
;)
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Sorry...I still don't think you acted like a jerk at all!...& I think you are giving youself too little credit! :-* ...But, what I care about most, is that you get your sweet little girl home & into your arms where she belongs...The rest is just incidental. ;) :) :-*
Heh...in other words, you like me so you are biased, so your opinion doesn't count! LOL I'm teasing about this last part, sort of...Thank you for the unwavering support, it means a lot to me.
;)
Who said I liked you? :P :D & yw! :-*