What'd we do wrong?!!

[luvanewf]

     Thanks for the article, very informative!  I think it has pointed out a few of our problems.  I think one main problem is that I viewed Sol almost as another one of my children.  I thought in order to have a great family dog you needed to treat them as a part of the family.  Don't get me wrong, I did do a few things right according to the article too.  I made him sit before everything.  He slept in his crate.  If I told him to do something I expected him to do it but now I see that a lot of his behavior was Alpha behavior.  He really only listened to me and when he wanted to he might and I stress "might" obey my husband and kids.
     We did not have his thyroid checked.  About a month prior I had his stool checked for parasites and other things because it was runny, but everything checked out fine.  At the same time the vet palpated his hips and other joints just because I thought he was walking funny and all that checked out well too.  Again, after he bit my daughter the vet palpated his joints again and really cranked on them and he was not sore at all.
     He has been gone from us for about 3 wks. now, 4 this Thursday, and the breeder happens to also be a vet. so hopefully she will check out his thyroid if she thinks it's needed.  I have had only a little communication with her and from what she has said he tried to be dominate right away with the male newfs and she had to separate him from a few. He was great with his sister and then later with another male and I think now he is milling around with most of them (she has 9).  She also said he is very well behaved better than her newfs and she thinks he just had a stupid hormonal male moment.  I believe she said she was considering neutering him early but was unsure if that would have helped.  She is searching for an owner that does not have kids and has experience with Newfs.  She also said that she has never, ever, had any problems like this with her other dogs she's sold and Solomon's parents had great temperments. 
     I have judged others in the past for giving dogs up, I always viewed it as being irresponsible, but it was for things such as they barked too much, they smelled too bad, too much hair, too energetic and destructive.  To me a bite is different.
     Again, the article was great and would love other suggestions for reading.  Do you all have a favorite book or article on dog behavior?  I need to educate myself and family before getting another.  I did a lot of reading prior to Solomon but now will view it a bit differently.

Thanks again to everyone for your replies, much appreciated!

Katie







 







 







 

[Gypsy Jazmine]

     Thanks for the article, very informative!  I think it has pointed out a few of our problems.  I think one main problem is that I viewed Sol almost as another one of my children.  I thought in order to have a great family dog you needed to treat them as a part of the family.  Don't get me wrong, I did do a few things right according to the article too.  I made him sit before everything.  He slept in his crate.  If I told him to do something I expected him to do it but now I see that a lot of his behavior was Alpha behavior.  He really only listened to me and when he wanted to he might and I stress "might" obey my husband and kids.
     We did not have his thyroid checked.  About a month prior I had his stool checked for parasites and other things because it was runny, but everything checked out fine.  At the same time the vet palpated his hips and other joints just because I thought he was walking funny and all that checked out well too.  Again, after he bit my daughter the vet palpated his joints again and really cranked on them and he was not sore at all.
     He has been gone from us for about 3 wks. now, 4 this Thursday, and the breeder happens to also be a vet. so hopefully she will check out his thyroid if she thinks it's needed.  I have had only a little communication with her and from what she has said he tried to be dominate right away with the male newfs and she had to separate him from a few. He was great with his sister and then later with another male and I think now he is milling around with most of them (she has 9).  She also said he is very well behaved better than her newfs and she thinks he just had a stupid hormonal male moment.  I believe she said she was considering neutering him early but was unsure if that would have helped.  She is searching for an owner that does not have kids and has experience with Newfs.  She also said that she has never, ever, had any problems like this with her other dogs she's sold and Solomon's parents had great temperments. 
     I have judged others in the past for giving dogs up, I always viewed it as being irresponsible, but it was for things such as they barked too much, they smelled too bad, too much hair, too energetic and destructive.  To me a bite is different.
     Again, the article was great and would love other suggestions for reading.  Do you all have a favorite book or article on dog behavior?  I need to educate myself and family before getting another.  I did a lot of reading prior to Solomon but now will view it a bit differently.

Thanks again to everyone for your replies, much appreciated!

Katie







 







 







 

Good reading for you might be "The Other End of the Leash"...Culture Clash" & (If Dog Prayers Were Answered) Bones Would Rain From The Sky"...I am sure at least one is by Suzanne Clothier...She is awesome!...Can't remember the other authors right off hand but all 3 are recommnded reading by our trainer/behaivorist.
Is it a posibility you could "bone up on things" & get Soloman back or are you too uncomfortable with that?...I wouldn't have even mentioned it but I can see how upset, stunned, & hurt you are....Again, I am sorry. 

[Nina]

Don't feel bad I don't think that you did anything wrong. Dilbert My Pyr border collie mix was very dominate at 8 months. And it really scared me. He wouldn't listen to me only to Tim. Then he got me really involved in with training him. We trained together and after that he was just a big softy with me. So I guess my suggestion to you is the next dog you get, have the whole family really involed in the dogs training that way there is no question as to the pack order.

Nina

[greek4]

You did what you had to do.  Your kids are your kids, no matter what did happen, you have to protect your children over an animal.  I don't have kids yet but I know when I do it will be an adjustment for the dogs.  They have been exposed to kids from day one, but never one that lived with us, hogged their mommy, and terrorized their space.  But you better believe I will be on their butts nonstop so they understand that my kids, any kids for that matter, come first. 

I have always said "one bite and down" for my dogs.  Unless they are in mortal danger, if either one bites a human child (I feel adults are more able to judge a situation), I will most likely get them put down for the fact that I would hate to pass a dog on that is capable of biting a child.  But I also don't have a breeder that would be able to take either back and rehome them.

I don't think anyone can judge or even understand how hard the decision was on your until they walk a day in your shoes.  Don't be hard on yourself, Soloman is safe and seems happy and so are your kids. 

[NoDogNow]

I'm totally with you on the protecting your kids thing. As much as we all love our furries, we all know that skin-kids come first.

One thing to keep in mind also is the idea of dogs as man's best friend.

Not every human being is going to have the right combination of characteristic s to be your best friend; and neither is every dog. Solomon's characteristic s, even with the best intentions, just weren't the right fit for your family at this point in time. You've made the best decision for BOTH of you, as hard as it is. 

Let me join the basset bandwagon. The best thing about a basset, since you have small kids, is that the basset is NOT going to be taller than they are! One of the things that leads, IMO, to pack issues with young Big Paws of many different breeds and human children is that at 6, 7, 8 months of age, the puppy is 3 or 4 times the SIZE of human kids--leading puppy to a sense that, 'ha, I'm the biggest, I get to be the boss!' And a big paw can often unconsiously convince the kid to believe this, too. I think that kids often have an easier time learning how to be 'alpha' with smaller breeds as their first dog.

A basset doesn't get taller than your kids.  

Plus, bassets are just enormously fun.  Some friends of my aunt's have had bassets for 30 years, and I've never heard of a single problem in all that time with one of them getting aggressive with a child.  A couple of them have chewed the crap out of some potential thieves and a stalker, though!

Besides...I can't think of anything any cuter than a basset hound. Those EARS, those EYES, THAT FACE! 

[rickie]

Thanks for sticking up for the Bassets My first dog was a Choc. Lab She was absolutely awesome!! My next was an Australian Shepherd. VERY smart and full of energy. I then got a Basset. I thought I had lowered myself to the bottom of the intelligence level. She is the best dog and learned her underground fence system in 3 days. She has been just as loving as my Lab was with children, although she may not be as smart as my Aussie was, she can be clever. I then adopted a 2nd one. They are good dogs, but socialization is the key to any dog. I also think it is very important to teach children respect for animals. How and when they should be touched etc. Good luck to you....

[horsepoor21]

I agree with Greek4 , we have that same policy in our household ( we have three kids under age 5 and one on the way) . We had a rescue great pyrenees two years ago who started attacking our dog Moose , even when the kids were in between them . We didn't have her put down of course since she just had issues with Moose , not the kids , but she did go back to the rescue as it just wasn't worth the risk ya know ? I think you did the right thing and I wish you luck in finding that perfect dog for your family ! We have a newfie who's just over a year , we love her to death and while I know I have alot to learn about dogs , she fits in with us perfectly . So , if owning ( or being owned  ) by a newfie is something your family still wants , I personally would try it again ! Especially now that your armed with more knowledge ! Good luck to you !

[luvanewf]

     I am so thankfull to All of you for both your constructive and kind words!  In response to another post, I don't think we are going to get Sol back. We talked about that a lot and think that letting him go to someone else would be best for us and for him.  If we did take him back and had something else happen, that would be yet another attachment break for both us and for him adding to the one we've already gone through.  We need to do a little more educating I think.
     On the positive note, my husband loves basset hounds so he'll be ecstatic to hear that some of you think they would be a great possibility.
     Thanks again for all of your help.  You may see me around on the obedience board asking many more questions.

Katie

[Leah-n-boy-os]

Wow, ok, I read this post, went away, and then came back and read everyone's responces. Lots of great advice out there. That being said...

You asked for constructive though on this, so I'm gonna give a bit of salt here.

Why was there *unsupervised* interaction between your 5 year old child and your dog after you knew that your dog was having issues with the kids?

You asked your 5 year old what happened, and then decided to give up the dog with no further evaluation of the dog or the incident?

What did you do to establish the pack order to the dog's understanding? After the first incidents of growling, what did you do to modify the dog's behavior/reinforce training lessons, for both the dog and the kids?

All these things should be looked at by you before you make the decision to introduce a new dog into your household. No matter what breed of dog you go with, if the dog and the kids are not trained to respect the order of the house and all in it, you'll always run the risk of problems. Yes, your children should come first, and the protection of them comes before all else, but they also need to learn to have respect for a dog and their boundaries as well.

Just my .02.

[luvanewf]

     Well, I guess I'm not too sure how we could have further evaluated the dog or the incident.  We did have him physically checked out but not his thyroid as I've already mentioned.  I only have what my 5 yr. old is telling me to go on and her story has remained the same, I do believe what she is telling me.  As for leaving her alone with him, my husband and I were in the kitchen with her and the dog, I left to the next room to get my 1yo. and my husband went outside to the grill.  Yes, we did leave her alone with him and it happened that fast.  It really was an innocent mistake on our part.

What would you have done to further evaluate the situation?

     As for the first incidents of growling I gave him an immediate and firm "no" and then put him in his crate for a time out.  As for pecking order, my kids would take turns daily training him as well as giving him his food or a treat with a sit or lie down command first.  I made him sit and wait for my kids to first come in the house, out of the house, up and down the stairs, in the car etc...

What would you have done to discipline the growling incidents?  I really want to know what I could have done differently.

What are a dog's boundaries?

Those of you with children, truthfully, do you NEVER leave your children unsupervised with your dog?

Do you teach your children never to approach or hug your dog from behind?

I know that we have a lot to learn before getting another dog and I will be following up on the reading recommendation s   but here is a great place to start too.

I know sooo many families with dogs that are great family dogs that haven't done 1/5th of the amount of training and work with them as we did with Solomon.  You can bet they leave them alone with their kids, you can bet the kids are not a part of training them, you can bet their dogs have never been to a single obedience class.  I think that is what really gets to me.  We may not have been perfect but we really, really tried.

Katie

[GR8DAME]

I have had kids and as many as 5 dogs at one time in my home for the last 18 years.  My kids and their friends are not allowed to approach the dogs from behind, hug them on their backs, get in their faces, lay on them, or disturb them in any way if they are laying down, and those are only the rules that I can come up with off hand. I can tell you that my kids were never left alone with any of my dogs until the kids were at least 10 years old. I can also tell you that my son, who is now 18 was bitten twice by the same dog, drawing blood, despite these procautions. Both times he did something he should not have done, knew he should not have done, and I was across the room and was too slow to difuse the situation. The dog, a 5 year old 95 LB doberman could have had McKid for lunch. Instead he taught the child a moderate but painful lesson in doggy etiquette.
Dog got in trouble, kid got in trouble, and life went on.
Kids are going to do things that they know they shouldn't, especially young kids. And there is no such thing as a kid proof breed, especially a young dog still learning his place in the house.
Yes, it sounds like you did all the right things, and took all the right steps, but sh!% happens. It happens no matter how many precautions and prayers and barriors that you erect against it. The only way you can possibly prevent any other incidences of this nature is to get goldfish, because all dogs have teeth and in the right circumstances will bite.
I hope this doesn't come off as harsh or unfeeling, but this is reality, at least The version that I live in.
Stella

[newflvr]

You are absolutely right, Stella.  In digressing for a moment, I think we are trying too hard to guarantee that we can protect our kids all the time.  Stuff happens:  dogs bite, cats scratch, knees get skinned, noses get broken and so do arms, legs and sometimes, sadly, even heads.  Sometimes it's just another of life's lessons and they can be hard.  There is no perfect breed, just like there is no perfect parent or child.  We all just muddle along the best that we can and when  sh*t happens, we try to learn the lesson that life is trying to teach us.  In doing that, I think you are teaching your kids how to deal with most things that life can throw you.  My kids are 28, 26, 24 and 20.  We always had dogs of all sorts of breeds, cats, rats. They were scratched (a lot!)by the cats but learned how to handle cats; they were nipped by puppies but learned how to handle dogs, the rats, well luckily, that was a short-time hobby!  The first three are all out of school and self-supporting and we all survived the usual crisis. It was hard and not fun much of the time but they can deal. 

I'm sorry to wax philosophical but I don't think kids can go through life in bubble wrap.  I feel awful that your dog bit your daughter and I am sorry that your dog went back to the breeder.  Maybe that was the right thing, and it sounds like you did all you could to do to train your dog to be good around your children but I wonder if given another chance, as Stella suggested, if both child and dog would have learned an important lesson.

This, of course, is all my humble opinion and I don't want to offend.  It's just an old mother's rambles!!!

[mojosmomie]

My opinion you did what you thought best at the time. BUT let me tell you about a local incident here.The family dog bit the family child. Well the owners had the dog put down and guess what....they found a pencil jabbed in the dogs ear canal. Yup the child (young) stuck a pencil in the dogs ear. No wonder the kid got bit. In the mean time the dog lost his life for no reason.
I would guess that Soloman was probably startled by your daughter, like others said, he could of killed her if he wanted to or seriously injured her. Im glad you gave him back to the breeder. I would consider waiting until your children are older before you get another dog. There are no perfect dogs or people for that matter and something like this could happen again.

lisa

[Gypsy Jazmine]

     Well, I guess I'm not too sure how we could have further evaluated the dog or the incident.  We did have him physically checked out but not his thyroid as I've already mentioned.  I only have what my 5 yr. old is telling me to go on and her story has remained the same, I do believe what she is telling me.  As for leaving her alone with him, my husband and I were in the kitchen with her and the dog, I left to the next room to get my 1yo. and my husband went outside to the grill.  Yes, we did leave her alone with him and it happened that fast.  It really was an innocent mistake on our part.

What would you have done to further evaluate the situation?

     As for the first incidents of growling I gave him an immediate and firm "no" and then put him in his crate for a time out.  As for pecking order, my kids would take turns daily training him as well as giving him his food or a treat with a sit or lie down command first.  I made him sit and wait for my kids to first come in the house, out of the house, up and down the stairs, in the car etc...

What would you have done to discipline the growling incidents?  I really want to know what I could have done differently.

What are a dog's boundaries?

Those of you with children, truthfully, do you NEVER leave your children unsupervised with your dog?

Do you teach your children never to approach or hug your dog from behind?

I know that we have a lot to learn before getting another dog and I will be following up on the reading recommendation s   but here is a great place to start too.

I know sooo many families with dogs that are great family dogs that haven't done 1/5th of the amount of training and work with them as we did with Solomon.  You can bet they leave them alone with their kids, you can bet the kids are not a part of training them, you can bet their dogs have never been to a single obedience class.  I think that is what really gets to me.  We may not have been perfect but we really, really tried.

Katie

My children are soon to be 8 & 9 & have been through all the dog training with me & have been educated extensivly to be dog savvy...They can "talk dog" & understand dog psychology, training & pack order better than most dog owning adults I know (off of the dog forums that is) & I do allow them without me right in the room with Pippin & Sheba  but I am still in close supervision..I insist not only my kids respect the dogs but the dogs respect them &  they all respect me...Keeps pack order running correctly...I try very hard not to allow them alone with Samson because I don't trust him as much as I do the other two...I NEVER allow their friends or younger cousin without my or my husbands supervision with any of the dogs...The children have to tell me when they need to come into or through the dogs area...Any infraction of this results in that friend not being able to come back...I stress my rules to them & if they are broken...well it's not worth putting the children or my dogs in any kind of jeopordy...I explain to them why these rules exist & I explain my breed to them & why they do what they do...Noen of my dogs has ever bitten...I had a rescue dog we adopted who did & it wa sunder adult supervision... She had shown unpredictable behaivor before & that was her last chance...We had to put Rosie down 6 & 1/2 months after she came to us & graced our lives...Sadly, she was already too far gone  & damaged before we got her &, though I enlisted proffesional help with her & gave her my all she never felt safe enough in this world to completely trust...So, the children & dog thing is something I am ever vigilant with...Rosie died with her head in my lap while I thanked her for trying so hard for us & as I wished her peace finally wherever she was going...I will never get over our dear, sweet tormented Rosie.\ & I do everything I can to ensure we never have to send another fo our furry friends on to The Bridge...It is my responsibility to keep both kids & dogs safe so I supervise closely.

[NoDogNow]

Like Stella and Mari, I've been bitten--in fact, I think the only dog I ever had that NEVER bit me was my Nicki! My mother would just look at me and say, "Were you being stupid with the dog?" And the answer was yes, of course--I was that kind of kid.

My cousin-in-law Amy doesn't even allow her children to be in a room with an animal of any kind unless there's an adult present. (Except fish; but she's not real happy about her kids being in a room with a 100 gallon aquarium. She's afraid they'll pull it over or climb up and fall in.)

I think the questions here reflect the fact that every parent has a different definition of what the word risk means in relation to their children. I don't have any kids of my own, but I have skads of 'nieces and nephews.' And about 85% of my friends have a much...narrowe r...definition of risk than I do. It's why I'm a favorite aunt of so many of 'mine.'

Figuring out where those boundaries are is the most important part of being a parent, and of being a fur-parent. And we're all going to misjudge those boundaries at some point, because we're all imperfect, you know? 

I think the most important question everybody comes here to ask is "am I doing (did I do) the right thing?"  The range of really thoughtful responses everybody gives to each situation is what I think really makes this a great place!