Prong collars

[Hartwood]

Hi, I'm new here, but had to jump in on this conversation about prong collars vs the Gentle Leader/Halti harnesses.

I work at a veterinary emergency hospital which also has a surgery practice, opthomology, dermatology and internal medicine practices within the same facility.

I also have a 90# Malamute mix that is being trained for freighting, a pit bull (rescue) and a JRT.

I had been dragged around by the mal mix (confused by the praise he gets for pulling when in harness) for a while, I weigh about the same as he does.  I learned about the GL from clients who came to the hospital who loved them.  I bought one, I Loooooooved it.  My Mal could no longer haul me around, etc.  I told everyone similar troubles about the GL. I  argued about how great it was. 

But...

This weekend at work, we had a dog come in to the hospital, (40-50# mix breed) with a broken neck suffered while wearing the GL.  I had heard people say that it was possible, but thought it very unlikely.  I now, have seen it can actually happen.

I got a prong collar yesterday, and we took a nice 3 mile walk with it today.  Frankly, I like it.  He can go to the end of his flexi lead, but does not pull with it. My Jrt, on a regular collar and flexi, put more force on the lead today than the mal. Honestly, even if the prong collar was able to put puncture wounds in the dog, I'd prefer that to having a broken neck.

[Anky]

Those collars look painful and mean, but I guess for some breeds it's a necessity.  Drake doesn't lunge at other dogs or people or pull on his lead, so I don't need to use one.  I don't feed him anything I wouldn't eat (aside from kibble), and I don't use anything on him I wouldn't want used on me.  Did that come out right?     Uh, you guys know what I mean.

It's not just the breed of dog, it's the dog's personality.  Like I said, the only dog in our house that uses the prong is the smallest, gentlest looking little princess dog.  Hobo looks like a Wolf and Sanity's just huge and people expect to see a prong on them, but not this little wisp of a dog.  I think the reason that they look so bad is because of how they're raised in the air, if it was the links that were flat against the skin I don't even think people would notice it, but that space is needed so that the prongs can move properly.

Let me tell you when Araby's trainer suggested a prong I about hit the roof.  It was evil and viscious and only pitbulls in rap videos wore them! I had this vision of my poor puppy with blood pouring out of her neck from those evil spikes.  The trainer told me to go home and try it on my own.  I put it on my thigh, over the jeans and yanked as hard as I could.  It pinched me, but not as bad to hurt.  I tried it on my bare leg, same thing.  Did it with the slip collar.  MASSIVE bruising.

 Another problem with the prong, and slip collars for that matter, is that people don't position them correctly.  It should be at the top of the neck, right behind the ears.  You can do this fun little experiment.  Take your right index finger and point it to the left, then push it right where your chin meets your throat.  As hard as you can.  Then do it where your throat meets your chest.  There's more control when it's at the top, and yet you can still breathe!

Ang

[Carolyn]

When this topic came up a while back, I went out & bought the plastic prong collar for Kiya. She's doing good on it & its not as harsh as the steel prong collar. I am hoping that she'll turn out like Apache, I only need a regular collar for him, but her prey drive is soooo strong. Any time a squirrel or deer cross our path HANG ON!
Carolyn

[Nina]

Those collars look painful and mean, but I guess for some breeds it's a necessity.  Drake doesn't lunge at other dogs or people or pull on his lead, so I don't need to use one.  I don't feed him anything I wouldn't eat (aside from kibble), and I don't use anything on him I wouldn't want used on me.  Did that come out right?     Uh, you guys know what I mean.

It's not just the breed of dog, it's the dog's personality.  Like I said, the only dog in our house that uses the prong is the smallest, gentlest looking little princess dog.  Hobo looks like a Wolf and Sanity's just huge and people expect to see a prong on them, but not this little wisp of a dog.  I think the reason that they look so bad is because of how they're raised in the air, if it was the links that were flat against the skin I don't even think people would notice it, but that space is needed so that the prongs can move properly.

Let me tell you when Araby's trainer suggested a prong I about hit the roof.  It was evil and viscious and only pitbulls in rap videos wore them! I had this vision of my poor puppy with blood pouring out of her neck from those evil spikes.  The trainer told me to go home and try it on my own.  I put it on my thigh, over the jeans and yanked as hard as I could.  It pinched me, but not as bad to hurt.  I tried it on my bare leg, same thing.  Did it with the slip collar.  MASSIVE bruising.

 Another problem with the prong, and slip collars for that matter, is that people don't position them correctly.  It should be at the top of the neck, right behind the ears.  You can do this fun little experiment.  Take your right index finger and point it to the left, then push it right where your chin meets your throat.  As hard as you can.  Then do it where your throat meets your chest.  There's more control when it's at the top, and yet you can still breathe!

Ang

That is so good to know, I am not going to get a choak collar now, I am going to get a prong one. We need something to get us train so I think that is what we are going to use.

[lins_saving_grace]

Hey!  it's Hanibal Lecter.

[Moni]

We have all of those, except the new Sensation-Harness(which I want to get to try out).  I'm of the dog training mind to learn EVERYTHING, take what you can use, then store the rest in the back of your head.  No two dogs are exactly alike and what works for one might not work for the next. 

I was taught that the dogs that fight the halti/gentle leaders the most are the most dominant dogs.  In my experience I've found that to be true(ahem  MOJO).  However, I've also found that the halti in particular is the best training tool to use when working with aggression.  They also work well on calm, laid back dogs and I really like them when training deaf or deaf/blind dogs because it can teach them to focus on you easier than the other types of collars.  I use the Halti on Tenchi when we're going out to were there will be a lot of people.  The reason is not because he needs it for control but because in a sense it's his "work" collar and he knows that he has to be on his gentlest behavior.

Prong collars are great for training dominant and/or pushy dogs who are NOT aggressive.  IMHO prong collars on a dog with aggression issues end up exacerbating the problem.  The dog lunges at the object it dislikes(people or dogs) and then feels pain, the dog then associates the disliked object with pain causing a snowball effect.  Prong collars on a submissive or overly sensitive dog seems to cause the dog to be more submissive and sometimes even skittish.

I just really don't like to see chokers/slip collars on dogs, unless I know that the handler is properly trained to use them.  Even then it's easy for a correction to cause excessive damage to the trachea.  I personally use it to wean off the prong collar since the dog still associates the metal noise or feel of the choke chain to that of the prong.  Unfortuanately this is the only one out of these 3 training collars that are allowed at obedience shows , so most people just see that and think they're ok or they're what you're supposed to use.

My favorite collar is the martingale/sighthound collar or even a limited slip, and I wish more people would use it.  It allows a bit of correction and is more comfortable for dogs than standard buckle collars.

Harnesses are good to get your dog used to and as stated before, I haven't tried the Sensation one yet.  However the normal ones are just not good for teaching dogs NOT to pull, they usually have the opposite effect.  Yet more and more vets are recommending harnesses after seeing the numerous injuries that can occur through the misuse of the other training collars.  There's actually been some chiropractors who've said that all collar types should go, especially on the giant breed dogs.  But then there's a huge outcry from people saying "no collars, then how will I train my dog?".  Well there's always clicker training... 

Anywho.. what was my point???  lol   The point...  oh yeah, there's a method and madness behind each collar and if used correctly will yield results.   

And you know how I was saying that we had all those?  I feel like Tenchi is a barbie dog with all his different accessories.  lol  Check them out!  And the last shot is how he feels after trying them all on!  lol

[will]

the truth of the matter is that humans have been domesticating canines for thousands of years.  all of these tools (chokers, prongs, collars, etc) are some attempt at taming our friends and could be considered a form of degradation.  and all of these tools, even a simple collar, are unnatural to the dog and have the potential to damage the dog physically and/or mentally.  I honestly can't imagine a dog breaking it's own neck with the gentle leader.  I'm not saying this couldn't happen, but if a certain dog is thrashing that hard, i don't think ANY of these tools are going to help. Keep in mind - training is most effective at an early age.  I don't see a gentle leader being very effective on an 6 year old untrained Weimaraner who has never had more than a collar around their neck.  I personally will never use a prong or choker because they use pain as a way to get the dog's attention.  There is no "magic bullet". The best thing for you and your dog is commitment to training and positive reinforcement - as opposed to any of these somewhat quick fixes.

[mixedupdog]

beachfloat-
Please understand, I'm not arguing, I'm comparing different attitudes toward training among different dog communities. I hear what you are saying about negative reinforcement.
What about the idea that some breeds, like Labradors, are bred to be somewhat insensitive-"thick skinned" if you will.  They are not supposed to respond to things like saw grass and burrs, thickets and briars, or they wouldn't retrieve in rough terrain.  They don't interpret the pinches from a prong as "pain"- more likely the stimulus from the prong is even milder than when we try it on our own leg.  Individual dogs in breeds not bred this way can also be insensitive, just like individual people have higher/lower tolerances to different stimuli. ( I have a really high pain tolerance, but a very low tolerance to loud noises).
Not everyone has their dog from a puppy, would you use a prong on your theoretical Weimeraner?

[BabsT]

I dont feel that a prong might trigger more aggression with dominant aggressive dogs...it is more on properly using it...If my dog attempted to lunge, he would immed be put into a sit and stay and I would not allow my dog lunge in the least, 

I do have a question though, How do you give a correction with a halti or gentle leader?

[dober_gurl]

Hmm I personally don't think the prong collar hurts, I bought Maggie a steel one before and before I even thought of putting it on her I tried it on myself, my sister, and 2 of my friends agreed that it does not hurt but infact tickles! Even my Agility Instructor(from when I was 12) said it would tickle the dog if used right and that's what makes them stop pulling.

[Kermit]

I have another question. If the prong collar doesn't hurt a dog, then what is the theory behind its effectiveness? This is not an attack on anyone, I would like to think that I can post on this board without negativity, I think we can all help educate each other here. I don't think it's necessary for anyone to call someone else's favorite training collar a piece of "crap", so I am not going to do that. But since the prong collar seems to be the preferred training aid for a lot of people, I would like to hear from you guys why you think it is so effective without being painful to the dog. How does that work out? Why does it stop a huge dog from pulling you?

The only corrective-training-aid-whatever type collar I have used with a dog of my own was a choke chain over ten years ago when I took my husky to obedience school; it was the required collar for the class. For the dogs I have now I use my voice and a flat buckle collar, and I can walk two at a time and not get pulled down the street. I guess I am lucky in that I haven't had to use any extra training devices.

I know that none of us would ever put our beloved dogs in a situation that we thought would be damaging. We love our dogs. I am asking questions about the prong collar because it makes me personally feel uncomfortable. I have had someone do a demonstration for me with my sister's dog Winona who was a very strong puller. It stopped her from pulling, and I from what I saw it was because she was scared to death. But I don't think any of you guys would use it if you thought it was hurting your dogs. So I am just wondering how/why it works.

[Kermit]

Dober gurl I guess you posted while I was writing my long drawn out question.

[Kermit]

And here I am one more time to dispel the mystery... yes, I have been called a hippie before.
(although I do shave my legs now...) and here is a close up of my dog's flat buckle collar...
 

(and no, Nigel isn't stoned in that picture!)

[Moni]

Posted by: beachfloat
There is no "magic bullet". The best thing for you and your dog is commitment to training and positive reinforcement - as opposed to any of these somewhat quick fixes

I agree TOTALLY here.  I was so focused on explaining what I personally found the different types of collars useful for, that I forgot to mention that.  Thanks for saying that! 

All dogs that I have personally trained, I've used either clicker or lure training when teaching a new behavior, ANY new behavior.  I don't rely on the collars to do the training for me.  I am a bit on the fence though because I will add corrections when the dogs learn it and choose not to respond(usually around 6mo-1ish if training from a puppy).  By corrections I don't necessarily mean a leash correction.  I use my voice(AHT!), body language, facial expression etc before it hopefully gets to far to need a leash correction.  Just like with kids who need guidance and discipline(not necessarily meaning a swat on the bottom either), dogs and puppies need it too.

However, most people either don't have the time or won't bother with taking the time to train their dog in baby steps.  So I've worked with many different trainers and I learned how to use the different collars that are out there.  Then when people ask for advice, I try and point them toward what seemed best for their situation. 

I used to run around touting the praises of clicker training to anyone who needed help with a dog problem.  However I got laughed at or brushed off more times then I care to remember.  CTing takes time and dedication, thinking and planning but the results are amazing when the dog "gets it".  People nowadays don't normally have the time, they need instant gratification and instant miracles.  So I learned how to use the quick fix tools so that these dogs can stay in their homes and can become welcome family members instead of nuisances.  I'd rather see dogs trained with other methods and staying with their families, then sticking by a single method.  I'm not saying that anyone here believes this, it's just how I choose to look at the way I train. 

Tell me if I ramble on to much, sometimes things just don't come out the way I mean them.  lol 

[Moni]

I dont feel that a prong might trigger more aggression with dominant aggressive dogs...it is more on properly using it...If my dog attempted to lunge, he would immed be put into a sit and stay and I would not allow my dog lunge in the least,

I do have a question though, How do you give a correction with a halti or gentle leader?

I was taught to use the Open Bar/Closed Bar technique when dealing with aggression.  That and a bit of my puppy training mantra, "Interupt, Redirect & Praise" and some calming signals.

I won't use a prong collar on an aggressive dog, just because there is a risk of that snowball effect and also a increased risk of redirected aggression.  I'm not saying it will happen everytime, but I've seen it happen enough that I personally won't use a prong in those circumstances, with that kind of dog.  I'm sure other people use it and have no problems and more power to them.    It's just my belief from personal experience, observations and discussions.

As far as how do you give corrections with a Halti/GL?  You're not supposed to give leash corrections with them, that's why I like them so much.     Again I use the mantra, "Interupt, Redirect & Praise", and some calming signals mixed with a little bit of clicker & lure training.  If a correction is absolutely needed then I use my voice(AHT!), body language and facial expression.  It works a lot more than one would think.   I really like the Halti when working with aggressive dogs because it has the added effect of turning their head & closing their mouth somewhat if they succeed in lunging.  Thus it lessens the chance of their lunge actually connecting, it's still possible but it definitely decreases the risk.

Like I said, I'm sure lots of peole have had different successes with the collars in ways that I wouldn't use them, I was just stating my thoughts and reasons.  If anyone has, I'd love to hear about it because one can never learn enough methods when it comes to training.