He Bit Me!!! Really Long

[Saint Pyr]

Sorry this is long but I am still totally upset 

I have been having real trouble with Otis.  He will not come or listen at all if he doesn't feel like it (yeah, typical pyr  ).  When he won't listen I will get hold of his collar to make him come with me.  Most of the time he will come but others he would start mouthing me, rolling over and pushing me away with his legs, or in some cases jumping on me while he is mouthing my hands.  It really wasn't too bad at first but he has slowly been getting more aggressive with it.  When he would do this things I would yell NO, say Oww, sometimes it worked mostly it didn't phase him.

Anyway, we had him fixed on Sunday, so he is in the house for rest for afew days.  Today I had to go to town, so I called him to come into the bathroom where sleeps the nights he wants in the house.  He balks alittle at going in at times but nothing bad.

Today he wouldn't at all.  I called and called and then went to take hold of his collar and he fought me!!  Each time I would get near him he actually drew back his lips and snapped at me!!!  No mouthing, actually using abit of pressure when he would get hold of me!!  I thought he was just being a real butt and got hold of his collar and he jumped on me and started fighting me and scratched me up fairly good.  Each time I would try and get his collar he would snarl and snap.  I was actually getting alittle scared as he is 9 months old now and 98 lbs. 

I got his choker chain and leash out as he is really good on these and tried to get him to come with me and he really started fighting!!! This was not working at all, so I tried to get the chain off him and he snapped at me acouple of times with his lips drawn and then finally connected.  He bit me!!! .  He didn't break the skin or draw blood but man it hurt, I was in tears!!!  He has always been abit of a PITA, but this I would never had believed!!!

I finally had to call my husband from work to come home  as I was in tears, scared and hurting, and couldn't get near Otis  .  He came home and Otis did the same things to my husband just not near as aggressive as he was with me.  Otis then snapped at hubby once too many times and hubby lost it and kicked him in the butt.  I want to say that we have NEVER, hit or kicked our animals before.  After Otis got a kick in the @ss he was more inclined to listen and went willingly to the bathroom.

He has been gradually getting worse with the mouthing, passive, aggressive thing, but has me completely upset. I am actually alittle scared of him and I really don't want the kids near him.  He is out of the bathroom now and laying next to me, but each time I try and pet him, he mouths me!!!

I know that his incision is really bugging him and I am waiting for someone to drop me off a cone tonight so he can leave it alone (guess that is going to be a fight getting that on with him acting this way  ).  I have been the one that keeps telling him to leave the site alone and have been pushing his head away from the incision.  I was the one that had to push him into the vets office and then the cage as well.  Is he really ticked at me for all of this, is it his hormones or what??   

He is my dog!!! and has always loved on me, curled up with me, sat on my lap!! and listened to me more then anyone else in the family.  But now I am scared, I can not have an aggressive dog in our house with me and the kids!!  I am at a loss 

[schelmischekitty]

wow, this is an awful situation.  i can see where you're upset, too, as i was terribly scared when axle bit me when he got his foot stuck even though i know it wasn't his norm, a big dog's mouth on you can be quite a shock.  anywho.  one idea might be that you can still do "obedience" with him, recently neutered or not.  it won't hurt him to "sit" etc.  another idea might be to leave a regular collar and leash on him when you're around.  when you want him to go somewhere like the bathroom, get the leash and if he starts fighting walk him away (remember if he fights really hard it might even pop his stitches), let everyone calm down and reassure him but don't let him run over you.  then try again.  if i'm not mistaken a lot of people have problems at one time or another with grabbing collars, dogs must see it as you biting them since it tightens up when they try to get away.  axle shows his butt and refuses to go into places too, but if i keep trying and trying he finally realizes i'm NOT going to give up.  wish you luck, and don't hold it against him, i'm sure it's just because he's uncomfortable.

[kathryn]

First off let me say that I'm really sorry that you got bit this afternoon but you need to put some distance between yourself and your dog for a few minutes and get your emotions in check.  I don't mean to sound mean or anything but if your emotions are everywhere it will just amp up your dog.  If you are scared and upset then your dog will be also.  Calm down and come back and work with him on some obedience stuff.

It sounds like several things are going on at the same time.  He's in pain from the surgery, he's testing you because he's 9 months old, and he doesn't see you as the boss.  I know some dogs don't like for you to grab their collar so get a tab leash and keep that attached to the collar for an easy grab site.  I would also try the Nothing in Life is Free.  I've never used it but I hear it works great.  

You can also call and see if there is a behaviorist or trainer in your town that will come out and see your dog and give you some pointers on training him.  Hope that helps.

Kat

[angelsmama]

another thing that might need to be added is when he was hit. that might not want to be done too many times, he could start associating the bathroom with being hit.. it could also make him less trusting, or more aggressive , just a suggestion..

[patrick]

If his incision is really bothering him he may have an infection- might want the vet to have a look.  But the second thing is that grabbing him by the collar like that he is going to see as aggression on your part and he is reacting to that. And the more he reacted the more you became aggressive and excited. Pyrs in particular do NOT like to be grabbed around the neck.  To move him you should just calmly attach a lead and walk him where you want to go. And if it someplace he doesn't want to go he should have a treat when he gets there. Being locked up in the bathroom may be a form of punishment in his mind so it should be made more attractive- a big bone to chew on or such.  A squirt bottle can also be used to command his attention, especially if he is being mouthy.  It sounds like you got into a real battle and that is the last thing you want to do especially since you lost! Not saying the dog was right- he wasn't.  BUT he WAS reacting to your behavior.  Time for a visit to a behaviorist  You can be alpha without physically forcing a dog and they can be so helpful in this type of inappropriate juvenile dog behavior.

[bigdogs@5501]

I went thru something similiar with Tank when he was about 8 months old. I would want him to come into the house and he wanted to stay out side and guard.
I have known other Pyrs who have shown similar behaviour.
There could be a lot of factors involved but what ever the under lying factor is, you have to be the boss.
Get a water bottle, have it handy, do not let him grab you again, squirt him in the face. Also attaching a leash to the collar is how I was always able to control Tank when he decided to be a butt head, which is the term that I use for this stage in the Pyrs life.
Pyrs are so much different than other breeds. They are independent, aloof and hard headed.
He is still your baby, and he may hurt your feelings, but keep reinforcing that you are the boss and be patient.

[People Whisperer]

I am sorry to hear that you have to go thrue this with Otis 
Nine months is a very difficult age for large breeds. They get very stubborn and "partially deaf" or "totally" LOL

I would highly recomment to stop putting ANY kind of pressure on him. Just let him be. Use treats to lure him in the bathroom so he will associate it with good stuff (would you like to be in the bathroom?). If you know he will not listen to you then don't ask anything. Only if you are 100% sure he will do something for you, give him a command and then praise A LOT. If he learns to ignore you ones than he will do it over and over again. Nothing In Life Is Free works wonders 

And ,yes, dogs do have really bad days just like us 

[sc.trojans]

I second People Whisperer and just want to emphasize that this is a very serious problem that will only escalate as you are currently seeing.  You need to contact a qualified APDT trainer ASAP and get assistance.

You have a very large adolescent dog, that even in the best of circumstances will usually be testing his boundaries right now and see what he can do.  But without any training and with such an adversarial relationship with you and your husband at this point, you really want to get this corrected.

I say adversarial because when he doesn't do what you say, you turn to physical force and go for his collar.  He has learned through repetition that nothing good happens for him this way.  It is very common for dogs to become very touch sensitive around their neck and turn into biters when anyone reaches for it.  You need to work on reversing this ASAP.  You want to de-sensitize him now to the heightened sensitivity he has about this and never grab him by his collar again.

Also, if every time you call him it is to go someplace negative - the bathroom for confinement, or in the house where play stops etc. then he has learned that coming to you is a bad thing and will never want to do it.  It is so important to teach a good recall my making sure there is great incentive to coming to you.  You need to make it a game - and have good things happen when he comes (treats, more play, going someplace fun etc.)  You must also always call him in a very fun, happy voice.  I would never want to come to anyone yelling my name tersely and that is no incentive either.

The fact that he didn't actually hurt you tells me he doesn't want to.  But he is in a physical adversarial fight with you right now and feels he must up his anty each time you up yours. As you get more frustrated, your verbal tone changes, he will up his anty.....as you then go reach for his collar, he will up his anty.....and then you reach for a choke collar....now his adrenaline will go higher and up his anty.....husba nd comes home and "loses it"....you have a recipe for disaster soon.  Just remember that he is only a dog - not a person - and still a child.  He is reactive with you and so it starts with you....as you escalate, he is too.

So I hope step one, you will stop coming at him with any negative energy and force at all.  You need to build positive communication with him so that he respects you and listens to you as a result of that.  He is young and you can still develop a very positive relationship with him. Next, you need to work with an APDT trainer asap ( www.apdt.com) to help you accomplish everything and ensure this doesn't happen again - for your own safety and your kids.

Good luck!

[mama23+pyrs2]

Oh Otis!! Goodness, and what a huge boy he has become! I'm so sorry this happened, and I have nothing to add as you were given some great advice to try. Just want to say good luck! And I can relate to his obstinance quite well. Surprisinly, my male is MUCH easier to handle in terms of listening and obeying than my female is- she doesn't budge for anything. She too will go nowhere near her crate anymore these days without being either forced, or eventually deciding she's not gonna win the fight. One thing she has NEVER done is get agressive with us though, I had to drag her in there by her collar yesterday because she just wasn't budging from where she was. (treats do nothing for her, she's smarter than that now )I'm sure she didn't like it, but mine have never reacted to being grabbed by their collar of scruff at all- thankfully, now that I'm reading this post.

Good luck to you! I hope it's something simple and perhaps related to his recent surgery like was posted above. Let us know how things are going!

[sc.trojans]

She too will go nowhere near her crate anymore these days without being either forced, or eventually deciding she's not gonna win the fight.

Actually, you raise a really good point and it has made me think of something else to offer here about crating large and giant breed dogs.

I am a huge proponent of crate training and believe it is an invaluable tool to teach our large dogs - to be able to go into a crate can be very handy.  I work hard to slowly introduce a crate to a new puppy and ensure he has a positive association, and I expect my breeder to have already started the crate training (good breeders do this) so my puppy is ready to sleep in one on his first night. If a puppy does not see their crate as a positive, safe place - then it defeats the entire purpose.

So with all of that said, I have also learned that there is a finite amount of time that my large breed dogs can spend in their crates - and this is in direct proportion to their size.  I do not believe that a large and giant breed dog can be crated beyond adolescence in a safe and healthy manner.

My first crate trained dog was a Berner....he came to me crate trained and was wonderful in his crate from the first night. Sometime after turning 7 months old, he began kicking the sides of his crate during the night and I quickly realized that he could no longer sleep effectively in the crate due to his size. Since we had the largest size made, he had effectively outgrown his crate.  After consulting several trainers, and orthopedists it was clear to me that he should no longer be expected to be in the crate since this was bad for his joints and developement. From that point until he was completely trustworthy in my home, he slept freely in the room where he could stretch out and sleep comfortably.

My point is that if you have a large or giant breed dog that can not stretch or rollover in his crate at this point, then it is no longer appropriate to make him sleep in it.  Many may be experiencing behavior conflict with their dog because the crate has truly become a negative, and uncomfortable place.  If so, his space needs to be expanded to a confined room if he is still not trustworthy or now allowed to be free if trustworthy.  A crate should not be a life long or indefinite sleeping place - it should be during training only.

[Duramax]

i totaly agree with all of the advice above, and for whatever his reasons are for showing the agression DO NOT be afraid of him! his is using his agression to get what he wants and it's working, so what he's being shown is ' if i growl, snap, and bite, i get my way. you must reteach him that if he growls, snaps, or bites, that it will have no effect on you, and is pointless. in a way it's like teaching a dog to sit for a treat. they'll know that if they sit theyll get rewarded for it! thus encouraging the behavior. it's extreemly difficult to train your self to not be bothered by a huge growling dog. but in my experience, one of the biggest turn offs for a grumpy dog- is when they know that the 'grumpiness' isnt going to work. i think the squirt bottle is a great idea maybe with a shot of venigar or lemmon for more effect, not in eyes of course. squirt bottle is a great way to let him know that the behavior is unacceptable with out being hands on. untill this behavioral issue is completly settled i would carry your water bottle around with you EVERY WHERE. it's a pain in the butt i know. But im sure it's the same in our house as in every other big paws house, if you need something like that it always seems to be at the other end of the room, and correcting a behavior after it's occured is usualy if not always pointless. hope every one's advice helps, remember he doesnt get anything unless he EARNS it!

[patrick]

I'm not sure the dog was actually being aggressive - it almost sounds like he was having a panic attack.  You do need to 'listen' to your dog - with him so violently protesting when he is normally very loving you really need to figure out what's going on.  I wholeheartedly agree that a change in the handling of this dog is warranted.  I personally never lock a dog in a small room alone with the door closed- this can be very frightening to some dogs - is that the problem?  Or has the BR become such an unpleasant experience because it is seen as a form of punishment?  Whatever the problem aggressive handling of a dog can be seen as a form of attack in the dog's mind and is almost never a solution to misbehavior.  And in spite of the escalating emotions in this incident this very large puppy did NOT actually hurt the person when he could have inflicted some serious physical harm- so he certainly is not vicious.  Hopefully the owner will seek some help and not "throw out the baby with the bathwater"

[schelmischekitty]

who was it that made a "room" out of pipes and fencing in their garage??  the pics were great on that, i just can't remember who it was, they had a futon mattress in there for their dog.  if the crating isn't possible b/c of his size, but it's still needed maybe you could do something like that.  i'm sure the "openness" of that would be a lot better (mentally) for your pupper and would make it more appealing to go into it instead of the BR.  plus, you could still use that BR lol.

[mama23+pyrs2]

I know Yiska never had a problem with her crate like this until recently, now that she doesn't get to play with Yukon. They haven't been trusted out of their crate at night yet and hubby wants to try when Yukon's shoulder is healed. He thinks they will be okay- accident wise. I know Yiska is comfortable in there, she's got plenty of room still- more than Yukon has and he goes in there willingly. Last night I had him in the house some and left the door open, when he was ready to lay down..he went in his crate and laid down. It's always been a positive experience for them but now I know she's missing her brother. I'd love to get rid of the crates that are taking up my whole kitchen but I also know with them being just 8 mos old, I am gonna need them, if they even choose to sleep out of them at night once they get the option. We left them one night in the laundry room with a gate up and Yiska tore some clothing etc up.. which I wasn't expecting so.. not sure what she would do in the house at this point.

[Duramax]

I would like to add something to sc. trojan's post.  A dog that is crate trained will look to his crate as his private space.  His den.  In my house we call it Jack's room.  Our rule is, if someone is in their room, you are not to bother that person.  That goes for Jack too.  As I am writing this Jack is stretched out in his crate having a morning snooze.  The door to the crate is open and his sofa is empty.  In fact the house is empty, just me, no kids.  Sometimes, he just prefers to be in his quiet space. 

So I guess I am disagreeing with sc. trojans on not crating after a certain age.  However, I do agree with the principal.  Jack was a distructive adolescent.  He was crated when we were not home up until recently.  I could leave my house knowing that it was safe from his chewing and, more importantly, he was safe from ingesting something that could have hurt him.

oop! i didnt read scTrojan's post, I am in agreement with Jacksmom.