Thoughts on Rescue

[Anky]

I was talking about this in chat, and I wanted to see what others thought of it.

I personally think that one of the reasons that Great Danes have so many BYBers, is because of the Great Dane Rescues out there.  Please just hear me out.  I've WORKED in rescue, and I'm all for rescue, however, I think that the breed specific rescues (I'll just say Danes, because that's what I know) make it so hard to adopt that the average Joe gets fed up and goes to a BYBer.  (A good ethical breeder is hard to find if you don't know where to look, and the average Joe has NO idea).

We have people up here on waiting lists for ANY kind of Dane, and yet there are other rescues over flowing but they won't adopt up here, not even if they have another local rescue (Of their choice) do a home check.  These are SOME of the things I've come up against in several different rescues.  They won't adopt with out any breed experience, they won't adopt out if you have children under 13 years old, they won't adopt out if you live within 10 miles of a highway, and they won't adopt out if you've EVER put an animal down for ANY reason.  There is a rather large well known rescue that was over flowing with dogs, and they were sending out the call for fosters a few years ago.  I was out of their adoption area but I said I'd help any way I could.  They said that if I wanted to I could foster, BUT if I fell in love with the dog I couldn't keep it, as I was outside the adoption area. 

I understand rules and protocol, but in the end why can't they see that they're hurting more dogs then they're helping?  I can think of at least 30 people I know off the top of my head that I've met, who've had such a hard time with breed specific rescues they just got a puppy off the internet or the newspaper.  They were told that they "couldn't handle" that breed.  Instead of trying to educate these people, they were dismissed, only to go out and unwittingly help put more puppies into rescue.  Why can't they see that?

I guess I'm writing this both as a vent, and because I'm honestly curious.  Are there reasons for rescues to put these iron clad policies in effect?  I'm not stupid and I realize the need for home checks, but why can't a local reputable rescue do it?  I understand no Children with puppies or nervous dogs, but not every dog fits into that category.  I understand that you want someone to know what they're getting into, but instead of disregarding them for having to breed experience, help them, teach them, find out what they DO know!

Just frustrated.

[jabear]

I dunno what to say Ang. Certain breed rescues make it more difficult for things to work out for the dog/owner. I wish there was an easy answer but there is not. Maybe you could try to get in touch with some of the higher ups in the specific organization that you refer to and try to get some answers for your questions. Maybe if you let them know how you feel and how problematic they are making adoptions they will sit up and take note. 

I know that here in CA, the Newf Rescue are awesome! Good luck!

[Kiahpyr]

Very well said Ang. I understand your fustration. I tried rescue before I got Kiah for some of the reasons you mentioned it didn't work. I did know what I was doing and I have a wonderful dog.

[ZooCrew]

I hear you Ang, and I have no idea why some rescues are so hard to adopt out of.  I understand their wanting to be careful as to who they adopt out of, but some of the agencies are so difficult, they only adopt out to about 20% or less of those interested.  That certainly isn't helping out the dogs any.

I was turned down by the only rescue in the area that frequently had puppies.  I wanted a puppy b/c I knew it would be easier on my husband and Keiko to get used to it growing rather than bring a full grown dane home.  I was turned down b/c one side of our fence is only 4.5'.  Unfortunately, we couldn't raise it (it's our neighbor's fence) or put up additional fencing (we live on a military base which has very strict rules on fencing).  The rest of our fencing is  5' and 6'.  I didn't think it would be a problem if we got a puppy b/c you can train them to respect the property lines, and if needed I could take it out on leash until we moved again.  I explained this in two emails sent a month apart, and also tried phoning them and left a message.  I never heard from them again.

Since that was my only experience with rescue, and b/c of all the problems I've heard others tell, I do not have high hopes when I try to adopt my next dog.  I don't plan on going thru another breeder for awhile, and would like to rescue, but I worry about meeting such high expectations.  Even some shelters are now starting to get very picky about who they adopt out to, no matter if they have the experience and knowledge or not.

[Kermit]

I work in rescue and I have to say, I think the absolute best way to get a dog is go straight to the pound and pick one up there. Most shelters can make a note and contact you if a specific breed shows up.
I agree that rescues are at times way too strict about who they adopt to. They are trying in the only way they know how to protect dogs who have already been abandoned once. I think everyone starts out with good intentions... but I have seen rescuers turn into dog hoarders. I have seen a lot of crap in rescue that has REALLY, SERIOUSLY bothered me. I am pretty frustrated about it at times. But then I will meet someone in rescue who is really moving dogs into homes.

[Good Hope]

Ang,

I agree with you 100%. We are moving to Alabama/Georgia and will need a couple of adult Pyrs. We are not permitted to adopt because we do not in Florida and are more than 2 hours away from Atlanta. (We will be 3 1/2 hours away from Atlanta and 3 1/2 hrs away from Gainesville. Go figure.

Another reason dogs are in rescue is a lack of support from breeders. Some breeders will place a dog sell/adopt a dog to people willing to do all the right things, but fail to help when real problems arise. Example, LGD breeds with difficulties in general training or socialization. I'd wager to bet for these breeds that's a huge chunk of why these dogs are in rescue. People have problems, go back to the breeder, petstore, where ever they got the dog and either no help or refered to a trainer with no experience with LGDs. Thus bad/wrong advice given, problems worsen, dog is returned to breeder, taken to a shelter, beaten or dumped. Education, assistance, and support is so important! Too bad education and support is not emphasized and a big part with these rescue groups.

It is a shame that so many end up in somewhere like Texas or Tennesee, but cannot be sent to other areas to be rehomed/adopted where there is a desire to adopt and great homes waiting. Sometimes, we humans make such a mess of things with too many rules and regulations for our own good! This is just another example.

Deena

[Anky]

Another reason dogs are in rescue is a lack of support from breeders. Some breeders will place a dog sell/adopt a dog to people willing to do all the right things, but fail to help when real problems arise. Example, LGD breeds with difficulties in general training or socialization. I'd wager to bet for these breeds that's a huge chunk of why these dogs are in rescue. People have problems, go back to the breeder, petstore, where ever they got the dog and either no help or refered to a trainer with no experience with LGDs. Thus bad/wrong advice given, problems worsen, dog is returned to breeder, taken to a shelter, beaten or dumped. Education, assistance, and support is so important! Too bad education and support is not emphasized and a big part with these rescue groups.

Deena I totally agree.  The thing is, aside from rescue and ethical breeders (Which as I already said the average person has no idea how to find.  I told a lady recently to look up the breed club, and she said "But I want to talk to adults!"), the only people left are the people you describe.  I would estimate (CONSERVATIVELY) that about 80% of all behavior problems are breed related, and a consequence of someone getting a breed they don't understand.  But when rescues turn them away, without trying to get them to understand, they have no where to go but these people, when, in reality, if they were just spoken to like human beings they would learn the breed isn't right for them and could find a breed that IS!

[Svnt4God]

Ang,

You have expressed your thoughts and frustrations quite well.

I think some rescue go way overboard in their requirements.. .  but then, they probably get very little returned back to them.

Then there is the complete opposite.  They will adopt to just about anyone, as long as you paid the money.   The majority of those dogs either get returned or end up in the shelter.

However, this is not the norm for rescue groups.   They all need rules ... most groups have rules that are workable to the majority of people.  But then there will be people that wouldn't be happy even if they got the dog for free. 

[cricket36580]

I know what you are talking about!  When I found Foster, he was 300 miles away.  Fortunately, the lady really wanted a good home for him and "bent" the mileage rule...without a home visit.  Of course, I had offered several suggestions of people in the area that would be happy to do one for her and I guess she decided that since I offered, I wouldn't be a psycho case.  However, there were, and still are, danes not 70 miles away that I'm not a fit home for because I don't live in that state.  Go figure.  I've also worked with people trying to find/home dogs that can't get one for one stupid reason or another.  I agree that there has to be rules, however rules are never written in stone nor should they be.  Too often I hear about idiots "working" in shelters and in rescue/foster situations.  There isn't an easy answer, nor one that would fit every group. 

Of course, my favorite rescue groups are the ones that only rescue "certain" dogs within their chosen breed.  Or will only take those that fit the standard...or the ones that say they're rescue but never show up to even look at the dog...or they never call the shelter back...

[PupDaddy]

Look what ad google put at the top of this page! No wonder we have a pet population problem.

[PupDaddy]

While I was not involved then, one of the predecessor presidents of the organization SPIN spun off from wanted to a National Rescue Coordinator. I guess the politics that some AKC clubs are reported to indulge in might carry over to local rescue groups.

There are some "rescurers" that get off on the power they control. If power and politics combine, and someone who is strong willed and opinionated (like you, Ang) is going to piss them off.
______________ ______
Off topic:
While I love danes, I'm not sure I'd be a good dane owner. I was playing (rough housing) with my friends 185# monster, and he put my whole head in his mouth.

[Gypsy Jazmine]

I was trying to work with a Pyr rescue was our sweet Rainbow Bridge designated Arwen was dropped in my lap like a gift from Heaven!...I have the pyrfect Pyr home imho...But I was met with attitude & no return phone calls to my efforts...I finally gave up on a rescue dog until our lady Rosie came to us...But I was just fostering her for Kuvie rescue & working directly with Good Hope when we decided we couldn't part with her...In, at least, Kuvasz rescue I couldn't say anything bad...At least they seem to know a good home when they find one!!!

[VdogLover]

While I do feel some rescues make it very hard for people to adopted. To try and place the blame for people going to BYB on rescue is VERY unfair. Most rescues came into life due to BYB NOT the other way around. Blaming rescue is the same as blaming the "good" breeders for pricing their puppies so high that people turn to the cheaply breed (BYB) ones. Which I'm sorry to say is more likely the real reason people buy from the bad breeders....wh y pay 1000.00 when I can pay 500.00.
In this day and age of the internet I find it very hard to listen to the excuse that people don't know where to find a well breed dog it only takes a few clicks of the mouse to find the trail.

[Good Hope]

Vdoglover, yes is not right to make assumptions regarding why people choose a byb or pet shop as opposed to a breeder. But, realistically, most breeders are on the internet and I know for a fact that some breeders who do not take their dogs back are on the "A" lists with the local and National Breed specific organizations. Honestly, how is the average individual going to make the distinction between a well thought out website by a byb/puppymill vs. breeder? How about the differences on the breeder lists? I believe many people just do not know how to find a "good" breeder, so for that reason I do support Ang in her statements, keeping in mind that that certainly does not apply to everyone, as many do so because of reduced fees as well.

You see, it really boils down to a lack of education and support. I have not been with rescue for very long, but I have assisted Kuvasz Rescue with 4 rescues over the last 3 1/2 months. The saddest thing regarding the rescues were that 2 of the 4 rescues were not due to improper placement in homes, but lack of support from the breeder initially, then once rehomed, through rescue, a lack of support from rescue. In each case, the applicants were "ideal". However, bad training advise, lack of support from breeder and rescue, pushed owners to the limit and 2 dogs back in rescue. You know, at some point, breeders and rescue need to stop trying to find a "perfect" home, cause, guess what, there isn't one. What they need to do is to find a good home with people who breeders/rescue can communicate and work with. Then both parties make the committment to assist whenever necessary with advise, tips, websites, dog groups, and a list of trainers in their area who can help when difficulties arise. And not just for 30 days, 60 days, a year, but for the life of the dog.

State boundaries and far away places should not matter, but unfortunately lack of trust is too great for many individuals in rescue. That is not just with potential applicants, but other rescue organizations as well. Yes, red flags arise on applications from nervous, excited potential adopters and instead of an in depth interview the applications are discarded. One rescue heard a story or two about bad placements so they cannot trust that other rescue to do a home check in another city or state ... the list goes on and on.

I do not believe this one little thread will fix anything, but those of you who breed or work with rescue, I hope this gives you something to think about.

Deena

[Anky]

While I do feel some rescues make it very hard for people to adopted. To try and place the blame for people going to BYB on rescue is VERY unfair. Most rescues came into life due to BYB NOT the other way around. Blaming rescue is the same as blaming the "good" breeders for pricing their puppies so high that people turn to the cheaply breed (BYB) ones. Which I'm sorry to say is more likely the real reason people buy from the bad breeders....wh y pay 1000.00 when I can pay 500.00.
In this day and age of the internet I find it very hard to listen to the excuse that people don't know where to find a well breed dog it only takes a few clicks of the mouse to find the trail.

I don't blame rescues entirely.  In fact I don't even place most of the blame.  I said "ONE of the reasons.".  And I stick by that.  And, no I don't think that the internet makes it easy to find a breeder.  Out of the top twenty Danes out right now, I think 3 of them have websites?  Dog show sites can be confusing, and like I said the average Joe is looking for a pet and as such they wouldn't even think of looking at a show/working breeder.  Many online dog discussion groups have rules against posting looking for a breeder.  If you Google "Puppy [Insert breed here] Breeder"  You'll come up with every puppy mill known to man.  ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Puppy+Great+Dane+Breeder )Even if you do find one that isn't an outright mill, that doesn't mean that it's a good breeder. 

Most BYBs (Again I'm talking about the Dane world here, because that's what I know) know all the buzz words to use to get people to buy.  Things like "1 Year Health Garauntee", most people don't realize that most genetic problems crop up at 2 or later.  "Parents were Health Tested"  We would ask what tests, but the normal every day puppy buyer wouldn't, and thus buy a puppy where the parents were just checked out by a vet.  "Dual Registered"  Normally this involves at least one, if not two scam registries, but looks impressive.  "We breed for temperament."  Don't get me wrong Temperament is VERY important (As I read once, Temperament, Health and Conformation are a 3 legged stool.  Without one leg the stool is a failure), but to ONLY breed for temperament is wrong.  "Champion Lines", or they use a famous kennel name, long dead, as a selling feature.  How far back were these champions?  How many poorly bred dogs are in the middle?  I could go on and on. 

What I'm saying is that breed rescues COULD cut back on people who go to BYBs, not ONLY by adopting to them, but education as well, such as "If we can't help you get a dog, and you DO choose to go to a breeder, here's things to look out for."  But so many rescues are anti breeder (Which I think is ludicrous, as every ETHICAL breeder I know absolutely pours themselves into rescue), that they'd never even dream of doing something like that, and, in reality, are harming the breed they're supposed to be saving.