What'd we do wrong?!!

[luvanewf]

Hi all,
     I need some input here as to what went wrong with our Newfie, Solomon.  Briefly, we got him when he was 3 months old and loved the heck out of him.  He was an indoor dog and I'm a stay-at-home mom of 4 small children so we were always around and he got lots of attention.  We took him to puppy obedience class which he did very well in and was daily exercised.  He came to as many places as possible with us and my 6, 5, and 2yr. olds all were a part of training him.  They all had him trained with both hand signals and verbal.  The kids just adored him and he seemed to adore them right back.  Actually, Solomon adored me over everyone else, truly dedicated to me.  Three weeks ago I heard a terrible sound from the kitchen, an agressive, rip into someone sound that just made me sick to my stomach, then my 5yr. old started crying.  I ran in and she said, "He bit me mommy!"  I just couldn't believe it.  He bit her on her stomach and broke the skin.  This was NOT just puppy mouthing (he was 8mnths. at the time)is was an aggressive attack.  I asked her what happened and she said he was standing in the kitchen and she went to hug him around his back, coming from behind and he just freaked out.  She said she didn't pick her legs up and put her full body weight on him nor did she pull his hair or hit him or anything else.  My three older kids are girls and were never aggressive with him, ever, so I can't imagine she was lying.  I noticed a few weeks before the incident that he would growl on occasion when one of the kids would go to pet him and he would also try to get in between me and the kids if I was on the floor hugging them or playing, almost like he was jealous.
     I know this is long but we are heartbroken.  We gave him back to the breeder because I just could not trust him anymore.  We are so sad.  I researched this breed and thought I had found the perfect breed for our large family.  I thought they were good with kids.  He was perfect in every way but then he just sort of snapped.  What went wrong?  I guess I want to know if you all think we as a family were just too much for him or for any other dog, 4 small children.  We really worked with Solomon and the kids on respect, respecting his space, being gentle etc...  He was not sick or in pain, I had the vet check him after it happened thinking maybe his hips were sore but he was totally fine. 
     I would really like to get another dog, especially a Newf but am really scared.  Is it because he was a boy?  He was going to be neutered at 10mnths.  Are female Newfs less possessive?  Should we wait to get another dog when our youngest is 6yrs. old, 10yrs. old?  Was this just bad luck with a Newf?  I really wanted a family dog to grow with the kids but am so disheartened after this.   Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much,
Katie

[bigdogs@5501]

Wow. I am so sorry to hear about this and I dont have an answer. I am not sure that you are going to get a definite answer. I have a Newf Mix that I am wanting to do the Therapy dog training because she is such a sweet dog. I have 2 younger female Pyrenees that I would trust around any young child. The Great Dane though acts overly anxious around children and down right overly protective around strangers- So there is no turning my back in those situations. Then we have a 7 year old Pyrenees that we rescued in April who is absolutely great with our vets young daughter- but has no tolerance for the younger Pyrenees. I think that all dogs have different personalities. I dont think that it can be based on breed, although some breeds are known to be better with children than other breeds. Having him neutered could have changed the aggressiveness, but there are no guarantees on that either. Hopefully the breeder is going to place him in a home with out small children.

[AC]

I am very sorry to hear this as well. Were you sure it was a bite, or could it be a tooth or teeth the hit the stomach and broke the skin? I have a 16 month old male Newf, Angus, and 3 children, 7, 5 and 17 months old. We have had Angus since he was 12 weeks. He is very tolerant with the children, though we are always on guard with him and the kids as his size along could cause a serious injury. I also know that I can cause him to spin his head around very quickly by barely brushing the fur on his back, almost like it tickles him. I first noticed this with the kitten we have. If Angus is sitting against the couch and the kitten brushes along his back, barely touching him, he spins around very, very fast. I tried it with my hand and got the same reaction, and his mouth is always open, he coud easily do damage with his teeth. If he is not expecting it, I could see him doing damage to a child. I am sorry this has happened to your family, but no child should ever approach a dog from behind to hug them. Some breeds are more tolerant than others, but there will always be exceptions and accidents.

[brandon]

I'm no "Newf Expert" , this is just a newf lover / owner's opinion, take that as what it's worth:

A newf is a working breed , they have to be able to think for themselves.  They can be a little head strong or down-right stubborn at times, the same with the other working breed dogs.  That's just the way they are built, a dog that is totally dependent on it's people is not going to be any good guarding the house, the livestock, or doing their job.   

I don't want to lambaste you but you tell us you gave up a dog for something you're not sure about, and I don't see any mention of working with him past this point.  This is just a guess, but I am guessing he might have been unneutered and in his 'teen' stage.  Just like human teens, they can be trying.

At that point you have to reinforce who is in charge, go back to the obedience training, and maybe start a healthy dose of "Nothing in Life is Free" if they are particularly head-strong.  Good news is with a little work you get through the teen stages and have a loveable family-member.

In my opinion the ones that are more headstrong, more stubborn, and just plain smarter are usually a lot more work but end up being just the best darn dog.  It's just really tough on the patience at times.

What I am getting at with all that is a working breed dog may not necessarily be the easiest, low maintenance dog to raise.

With 4 small children your plate is probably pretty full, maybe an easier breed would be better.  I have no recommendation on what that would be, but dumber dogs are usually so much more easy to raise than smart ones, and they are just as sweet.  I love basset hounds they are the sweetest goofiest dogs, but dumb as dirt.

I also agree with AC, I've had plenty of tooth marks from the fat heads hitting me with their mouth open. 

[SA_horses]

He bit her on her stomach and broke the skin.  This was NOT just puppy mouthing (he was 8mnths. at the time)is was an aggressive attack.

I don't know a thing about Newfs specifically, but the above part of your post doesn't quite make sense.  It just doesn't sound to me like Solomon truly wanted to hurt her.

At 8 months, he would have been pretty big already.  If he wanted to hurt her, he was perfectly capable of killing her right then and there, especially since it was her stomach.  That's a very vulnerable area.  However, it doesn't sound like he did much damage.  I am guessing that she didn't even need stitches because you didn't mention it.  Was it just puncture wounds?

However, you said that he made a horrible noise.  I have to kind of wonder if Solomon didn't see your children as lower in the pack order despite his training, since he occasionally growled at them.  If that was the case, he would have thought it appropriate to correct your daughter when she bothered him.  She hadn't paid attention to warning growls earlier so he was stepping the correction up a notch with snarling and a small bite/nip.

That's just a guess.  Maybe I am completely off-track.

Another possibility is that he was sleeping or otherwise not alert and was so startled that he just spun around snarling without realizing what had happened.  The injury to your daughter in that case could well have been unintentional.

Now, in the first case, it would have been a problem in the pack order.  That does not indicate a bad dog in any way; Solomon may have worked out well with some reinforcement of your children's rank.

In the second case, your daughter was at fault in startling him.  However, this is going to happen occasionally with small children in the house despite your best efforts to teach them not to disturb a sleeping dog, etc.  If this is what happened, his behavior wasn't out of line generally speaking, but he did have a stronger reaction than acceptable in your situation.  Quite possibly he will be better off in a home without small children.  Even though a breed may generally be very tolerant of children, a specific dog within that breed might not be.

Those are just my thoughts on what might have happened.  I hope that they help you. 

[luvanewf]

Thanks everyone for your replies.  I guess I don't quite know what to say.  I feel a bit foolish maybe.  I never taught my kids to not come up behind Solomon and hug him, they did it all of the time and he was o.k. with it before.  As for sleeping I did teach them to leave him alone when he was asleep and this biting incident did not happen when he was asleep.  Am I wrong in expecting that a good tempered dog would be able to handle any of these situations without biting one of my children?  You are also right in saying that we did not work with Solomon after the bite to reinforce who was pack leader, I felt like I couldn't take the chance having him around my kids in case the next time he decided to warn her, or whatever it was, he could really hurt her or possibly kill her.  The bite did not require stitches but left 2 open wounds and quite a bruise.  I'm sure he could have done much worse if he had wanted to.
     Please go easy on me as I really do want to figure out where we went wrong, if we did.  It was a very hard decision to give him up. 

Katie

[ptkennel]

Don't beat yourself up too much.  I think that you did right by giving him back to the breeder.  I also have small children and any bite isn't good.  We did the same as you did when our dog (a heinz 57) bit our boy.  My son was antagonizing the dog though.  We still haven't had any problems with any other dog doing that just that dog.
I think there is a male dominance thing there and that could of been aprt of the problem, it was in our case.  Our dog would growl as well if you went near him sometimes for no reason.  I gave him up and found a family with no kids at home, better for the dog in our case. 
We have a newf now and she play bites but thats all, shes 5 1/2 months, we have sneaked up on her and everything, she just licks us, no aggression.  Its not all newfs, get another one, maybe female this time.  Just my opinion.

[SA_horses]

I'm sorry.  I didn't want my post to make you feel bad in any way.    I was just guessing at what may have happened with Solomon to give you some ideas.

I felt like I couldn't take the chance having him around my kids in case the next time he decided to warn her, or whatever it was, he could really hurt her or possibly kill her.

I think you were right in thinking this, especially since you weren't sure what had happened.  As others have said, you didn't do anything wrong in sending him back.  He didn't have the right temperament to make a good pet for your family, regardless of whether he was too dominant or too easily startled, and now the breeder can find a home that's more suitable for him. 

And yes, the right dog should be okay with children coming from behind and hugging them.  It is better if they talk first, but there are dogs out there that won't be bothered in the least when children do something unexpected.  For example, our Leo, Sapphire, and even Captain are great with Ana (3 yrs.) and Catherine (21 m.).  They put up with all their antics, even some no-nos on Ana's part such going into Sapphire's kennel and nearly sitting on them when they are trying to sleep.  Not that we don't stop her.  My point is that you can find extremely gentle dogs that are excellent with children.

And again, I am sorry.  I hope this helps you more without making you feel bad.

[Gypsy Jazmine]

First off let me say that it sounds as if you were trying to do everything right with Soloman & I am so sorry...Believ e me my heart breaks for you. :'( ...From what you said I'd guess that either Soloman was startled, felt "under attack", or had decided your children (or at least that child) was a "lower status dog" so to speak...The occasional growl  you mentioned directed towards the children proceding this bite makes me think it might be a combonation of the last two possibilities I mentioned...Al so, the doggy teenage years can be trying...Samso n was a complete a** from 7 & 1/2 months until around 11 months...I never had any problem like that with Pippin & both were trained & raised the same way...I did find later that Samson's father had "issues" however so, on his part, some of it may be genetic but there is always a difference in dogs of any type just like we are all individuals with different likes, dislikes, & tolerance levels.
I strongly urge you to read ALL of this article before getting another dog of any breed...I believe that your 6 & 5 yr. old children are old enough to follow the training method described in the article & I think it covers about everything.
How long has Soloman been gone from your home?...Are there any known temperment issues as per his parents?...Did you have any thyroid testing done or did he show any signs of having a thyroid problem? (I am not an expert on the signs & symptoms but there are people her at BPO that have dealt with it.)
Also, & I hate to say this because I know how badly you already feel.) but small children should never be left unattended with any dog...Children often do not pick up on the warning signs a dog gives that he might bite next so we have to keep an eye out for that for them. :)
Good luck & again, I am sincerely sorry.

edited because I forgot to include the link...Hey, it's early!
http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

[PennyK]

I'm so sorry.  Sounds like you did everything right.  I would have made the same decision. 

I have small kids and Teddy is 8 months old - I know how I would feel if something like that happened.

[brandon]

Something else I thought about... Gypsy mentioned his thyroid, he also could have had bad hips or been going through growing pains.  I know my fuse is a bit short when I don't feel good.

[ptkennel]

What a great article on Boot camp.  Good ideas for the dominant alpha dog.

[navarre1316]

I agree with a lot that has already been said to you.  You did nothing "wrong", but this sounds like a pack thing.  Like Jacksmom said, a dog will look for any opening, and I think some people forget that even when a dog becomes an adult.  Solomon was probably going through something.  I don't think the breed matters, we've had problems with Cockers, GSD's, and mutts; all dogs do it to one extreme or another.  Now you will know for your next dog, and I was also wondering if you knew what the breeder has done with Solomon?  Good luck to you, and don't give up!

And Brandon, I'm not going to bust your chops for the Bassett remark, one of our dumbest dogs was a Weim and they are KNOWN for their intelligence!!  Again, I don't think breed matters, there's always one out there!

[brandon]

Hey, I love basset hounds, we considered the breed as a companion for Bava because they are sturdy, sweet and lively little dogs.  If you look at the breed intelligence charts Bassets are listed down at the bottom with Afghan hounds. I didn't make the charts up, and no idea how they are evaluated.

[newflvr]

I think you made a really tough decision based on protecting your child.  That just can't be a wrong decision.  However...I am not an expert with Newfs, I've just had four of them and the variation in their temperments is just like any other breed.  I think we all have the expectation that if it's a Newf, you just never have to worry.  That's not true.  My first Newf, Otis, was, in temperment, the pinnacle of the breed.  I never had to worry about him.  Lucille, my little bitch, really was a b*tch!  She was too protective and would attack smaller dogs and we had issues with her.  Cowboy, AKA Angel Dog, is a therapy dog and is again, all that you think of with a Newf:  mellow, loving, gentle, etc.  Chester, the brown boy, is sweet and gentle, but SOO energetic!  He races around like a lab!  I wouldn't worry about him biting but jumping, knocking people over, etc.  We're working on that and are going back to school in Sept. to see what we can do about it.

I would think the best thing you could do if you want another Newf is find the very best professional breeder you can (if you want suggestions, pm me) and tell them your experience.  Have them pick out a puppy for you.  Or, better yet, take an older Newf (at least a year old) that perhaps was meant for breeding but didn't make the cut.  An 8 month old pup IS a handful!  They are testing limits!!  And I think a smart dog, once you get in sync is the best dog to have around!! 

Good luck and don't feel guilty.  You did what you had to do to protect your pack, but children have to be trained just like the dogs...it is a two way street.